Shoot or Don't Shoot Scenarios

[Jackalope]

   I've been pondering the future, and how a spiral into anarchy may impact the daily life of American citizens.  I'd like to postulate a couple of scenarios and see how you would react to these situations.  This is entirely hypothetical, and there are no right or wrong answers.

    For the background, the American economy has tanked, food deliveries to stores have ceased, and there are reports of chaos in the cities.  We're four weeks into the event, and a police/sheriff presence is non-existent.   There's no grid electricity, no internet, and no cellphones. There are neighborhood rumors that the government has completely fallen apart, both locally and nationally, but there has been no official confirmation.  Shortwave broadcasts indicate a global financial meltdown.  It's August, so it's warm; and on your little homestead, the crops are doing well, and chickens are laying.

    You have a night watchman, to ensure the safety of the homestead. The night watchman hears swearing from the perimeter fence, as an intruder accidentally brushes against an electric fence.  The watchman, using a basic night vision device, observes two men with rifles attempting to cross the fence.  The watchman has a clear shot at the intruders, and he is behind cover.  So, should he take the shot?

     Same scenario, but it's winter.  People are more desperate, as hunger becomes a major problem.  At twilight you catch a neighbor and his sons stealing wood from your woodpile.  What do you do with them?

      These are just thought exercises, but they also illustrate possible legal and moral issues that folks need to consider.

[JohnyMac]

Funny that you should ask this as we were discussing it at a local MAG meeting.

Scenario 1

I think that the SOP should be, a) Notify the cabin/house/quick reaction force, then take a warning shot over their heads and let them know if they do not retreat they will be shot. Have the QRF go above and below them not to capture but to make sure they continue to retreat. To dangerous to go directly after them for fear of a ambush. 

If they left the immediate area, for several days, I would double the watch. Maybe you could catch them if they came back.

Scenario 2

IMO, the goal here since it is a neighbor, would be to capture them to find out WHY they are stealing from you when we are surrounded by thousands of acres of hardwoods growing and down.

Similar to Scenario I, I would notify the cabin, fire a warning shot, then demand that they come forward or be shot. I then would instruct the QRF from in the cabin to circle them, herd them to a spot to pat them down, and then figure out why they were stealing from you, a neighbor.

Just a first pass on what I would do. Looking forward to reading what others think.

[Sir John Honeybucket]

Solve it with your radio --

Dragonfly 1, this is ERIN actual.  Make this problem go away....

[Nemo]

Try this.  You will kill the wrong person, the right person at the wrong time, or get killed yourself.

Nemo

https://www.policedefense.org/decisionpoints/a/

[Jackalope]

    Those simulations are interesting Nemo, but they occur during a time when laws are still mostly respected and enforced.  My scenarios take place in a situation where the rule of law is in question.  Who defines when lethal action is needed?  There may or may not be repercussions for lethal actions during times of upheaval.  We may be in kill or be killed situations, where traditional laws may be replaced by "frontier justice" or "biblical justice".

    In my second scenario, it must be decided how stealing is appropriately resolved.  In a WROL scenario, there are no jails or prisons.  I can see why Sharia law dictates that a thief has a hand cut off when caught stealing.  This punishment serves multiple purposes: it definitely physically effects the thief with negative reinforcement, it alerts the populace that there is thief in their midst, and it's a reminder that actions have consequences.  Stealing causes a loss of a commodity that could potentially effect the survival of your group.  So, do you let a thief go loose so he can prey on other folks?  In the U.S. west, horse thieves were often hung for their actions. 

    Again, there are no wrong or right answers.  For me it's a mental exercise now, so that I have less to think about later.

[pkveazey]

Hmmmm.... That's a tough one. Every Lawyer that I've ever heard talk about when its OK to shoot say to never fire a warning shot and never shoot to injure. Only shoot to stop an assault. That means only shoot if it becomes absolutely necessary and if you do shoot, then shoot for center mass to stop the threat. Now, setting the law aside, just remember that if you ever have to shoot someone, you have to live with that for the rest of your life. Now, how do I know if I am capable of shooting someone? I'll only know the answer to that question when and if I get into that situation. I've always felt that it is impossible to make me angry enough to shoot someone but if you scare me I probably will shoot you instantly. As for the woodpile and the neighbor, I have no idea how I would handle that. Each situation has to be handled on its own merits.

[Felix]

1st scenario:   alert QRF if possible before taking any action, observing only but in the meanwhile but keeping weapon trained on them.   IF the two armed individuals succeed in gaining entry before QRF makes any response - do your best to drop both of them  on your own.    If QRF responds after you've engaged and possibly dropped them, follow-up is safer because of back-up - you don't know for sure if those were the only two.
Bottom line - armed men seeking to infiltrate/break in under cover of dark are not a threat to "warn and release".   Come to my gate, call out to announce presence, staying _outside_ perimeter in broad daylight until I respond and it's a whole different animal.
   
2nd scenario:   Desperate people do desperate things.    But this is a _neighbor_.   Why didn't you already know how desperate he/she was and address this in advance?     The fact the "unauthorized appropriation" of resources cannot be punished with fines or jail makes for real problems where latitude is concerned.   I'd do as mentioned before, apprehending, holding, questioning before presenting the case following day to rest of neighbors in effort to reach consensus on what is to be done)

[grizz]

Are their actions a threat to you or your family?

[Felix]

Grizz, I'll assume your question is direct response to my theoretical response/posit.
Fair enough...
But don't expect me to "explain" or justify in detail.   I'll stick to generalities that you and I could debate...
Under the possible/extreme/situational conditions we are ALL (an assumption, yes)  preparing for, tough, life-and-death, no-second-chances decision/action choices honed responses into a very binary menu.   This is a bitch, yes.    But Bitch don't care if we do or don't comply with her demands.   She merely insists on us living with the fruits of our decisions.
When that fence was encountered and they didn't raise an honest ruckus and loudly plead succor, then they offered enough evidence that they were "up to no good".
I'll stick to my binary, please tell me how you'd parse it more accurately (and safely, for the MAG that you are night watch for and therefore in charge of every sleeping person's security)

[grizz]

Grizz, I'll assume your question is direct response to my theoretical response/posit.
Fair enough...
But don't expect me to "explain" or justify in detail.   I'll stick to generalities that you and I could debate...
Under the possible/extreme/situational conditions we are ALL (an assumption, yes)  preparing for, tough, life-and-death, no-second-chances decision/action choices honed responses into a very binary menu.   This is a bitch, yes.    But Bitch don't care if we do or don't comply with her demands.   She merely insists on us living with the fruits of our decisions.
When that fence was encountered and they didn't raise an honest ruckus and loudly plead succor, then they offered enough evidence that they were "up to no good".
I'll stick to my binary, please tell me how you'd parse it more accurately (and safely, for the MAG that you are night watch for and therefore in charge of every sleeping person's security)

The wood is stockpiled to keep me and mine warm and alive, anyone taking it is presenting a threat to me and mine (mine = group or family)

[Jackalope]

    Just some comments regarding the responses:

     Regarding the stolen wood situation, I like Felix's idea of trying the perpetrators by the other local neighbors, which is more in the spirit of traditional American law.  The big problem is determining the appropriate punishment, that does not include incarceration.   

     In my estimation, the first scenario is the more dangerous one, and also the more concrete.  I doubt there will be a QRF, so immediate issues have to be dealt with quickly and concisely by the watchman.  Seeing that the two individuals are attempting to sneak in at night, rather than openly bringing attention to themselves, indicates that they have bad intentions.  The watchman should shoot them both and then ask questions, especially in a WROL environment.   Currently, crossing or cutting a fence is an illegal act in my State.  We will need to change our mindsets for survival, if there is no government sponsored law enforcement.  My thought is if you let them go, then they will be back, maybe with reinforcements.  End it immediately.

[Trail Ninja]

Good mental prep/exercise Jackalope, I like it.

Scenario 1 is pretty darn serious. Two men with rifles trespassing in the dark of night. You can't read their minds and they're playing with their lives and yours too. You can try to detain them, but risk being killed. They are on your turf, and will trip your signal devices which are designed to let them know, you know they're there. If they proceed, take them out, as tragic as that is. All of this should be SOP, and your MAG and neighbors understand this.

I too like the idea of having the general consensus of all neighbors for scenario 2.  Hold the perp-neighbor until the other neighbors (MAG) can be informed. I can see the need to have these details worked out ahead of time with your neighbors/MAG. This is were a MAG has value IMO. Another thought is, why is your neighbor stealing from you?  Did he refuse to be associated with your group?  Is he a trouble maker? Will his family be looking for him?  Is this going to turn into a Hatfield and McCoy situation?  To be weighed carefully.