Unchained Preppers
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kobalt on August 29, 2011, 04:09:57 PM
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Does anybody have one I might traid my arsenal for one. ;D
They see me trolling, They hatin!
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I have a Socom 16 thats up for trade. What type of Aresenal you got?
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Sorry but I ment my arsenal of weapons, Meaning a 1022 and a shotgun.
Sorry for messin with ya!
They See me trollin, They Hatin!!!
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Sorry but I ment my arsenal of weapons, Meaning a 1022 and a shotgun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84kzyhiPBM
;D
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Sorry but I ment my arsenal of weapons, Meaning a 1022 and a shotgun.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84kzyhiPBM[/url]
;D
Lmao...priceless
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=npqzBtJ2Gco [url=http://yoursmiles.org/p-m
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Don't troll my forum.
Not going to stand for it bro.
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douche bag topic of the site award goes to........
spititofadventure
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Ok :(, At least I got a award.
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Ok :(, At least I got a award.
It's ok, she's pretty much been traded. I got a pretty sweet ass AR build coming. Going to put all your shit to shame.
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It's ok, she's pretty much been traded. I got a pretty sweet ass AR build coming.
The M1A gods frown upon you. Know this: you will burn! [img]http://www.smileydesign.n
>:D
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It's ok, she's pretty much been traded. I got a pretty sweet ass AR build coming.
The M1A gods frown upon you. Know this: you will burn! [img]http://www.smileydesign.n
>:D
Well, at least he won't be crushed by the weight of all that .308 on the market. ;D
But really though, I've been looking at some sweet M1A rifles. Only bad thing is the price, and as I said, lack of plentyful ammo.
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spirit whatever you do dont get rid of your 22, my grandpa has killed almost every animal in the south with a 22 at one time or another
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Well, at least he won't be crushed by the weight of all that .308 on the market. ;D
But really though, I've been looking at some sweet M1A rifles. Only bad thing is the price, and as I said, lack of plentyful ammo.
Well, like I've told many others...if you get an M1A, you really do not need another rifle. These are the advantages I've seen: I've shot mine, and it is very easy to control shot placement. Not much kick. The caliber is very accurate out to 800-1,000+ yards if you know what you're doing (can't see using this much, but it's good to know). This also tells me that it will be much more accurate than an AK as distance increases (not that the AK is a bad weapon). It will penetrate many kinds of "cover" that the 5.56 cannot.
Another benefit, in my opinion, is that it also doesn't resemble the stereotypical "evil black assault rifle" that the public has been indoctrinated against. The M1A actually looks like any other hunting rifle with a 5 or 10-rd magazine (easily switchable), especially if you get one that has a camouflage stock. So, you get the capabilities of a battle rifle without sheeple freaking out the second they see it.
Another added benefit that the advocates of AKs and ARs do not seem to consider, is the M1A's ability to load ammunition via stripper clips (unless you have a scope/rail mounted on top). If I do run out of loaded mags, if I have a bandoleer with me, I can load 10-rd stripper clips all day long, without pausing. It's not as effective as loading magazines, but I won't be out of the fight for 1-2 minutes while I'm trying to load, thereby providing the enemy at least a few seconds to a minute to fire and maneuver to a different location. If you lose sight of the opposition's position, you might end up dead.
Yes, you will pay more for 7.62 NATO and .308. However, you probably will not use more than a few thousand rounds of ammo. I purchased 2 200-rd battle packs of German mil-surp 7.62 ammo for less than $200 from Cheaper Than Dirt. I have had some feeding problems with mine (one out of every ten on average, for a grand total of 60 rounds, would fail to completely load from the mag to the chamber). However, through a member of this forum (or former member, rather) who is very knowledgeable on such things, I have been told that this ammunition is actually of good quality and it's probably some maintenance I need to perform on my M1A. Still working on that. Anyway, quality ammunition can be had for a decent price if you look around for it. Currently, Cheaper Than Dirt has 1,000 rds of Lake City 7.62 for $604. That's only $0.61 per round, for mil-spec 7.62 from an American manufacturer. Excellent deal, if you have the money.
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Rah my man, I'd say something right now, but my wallet is listening ;)
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Rah my man, I'd say something right now, but my wallet is listening ;)
:))
Shh...just take out your money and credit/debit card(s), hide the wallet under your bed, and tell it you're just going for a walk.... >:D
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All of those details you posted where/are known to me.
The problem is. I have 17+ AR mags.
& at $50+ a magazine. It would take me forever to get that for the M1A
It makes more since for me this way. Hell this AR build might even turn the tables on my opinion.
Where looking at a 14.5" Barrel & a battle comp. Gissele trigger group at 3 1/2 pound pull. Ambi everything.
and some other details I'm not willing to discuss yet. ;D
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All of those details you posted where/are known to me.
The problem is. I have 17+ AR mags.
& at $50+ a magazine. It would take me forever to get that for the M1A
I'll not argue what's best for you, as only you can truly know this. However, if you go to this link you can be pleasantly surprised...these are 20-rd M1A mags made by Checkmate Industries, the same manufacturer who produces the Springfield Armory mags (if I remember correctly). They also are current U.S. military-issued M14 mags. They are possibly the most reliable M1A mags on the market, from what I have read. They are currently $26 each, brand new, or $24 each if you purchase 10, from 44Mag.com. I thought I told you this before in another thread?
Also, the Springfield SOCOM you have/had is also an excellent make from an excellent manufacturer. The best in its class. I'm not saying that the AR you are interested in building is inferior in quality...but I will say that you'd be hard pressed to prove that the M1A you have/had is inferior to it. Unless, of course, you plan on becoming a lefty. ;D
http://www.44mag.com/product/m1a_m14_magazine_20_usgi/check-mate_industries (http://www.44mag.com/product/m1a_m14_magazine_20_usgi/check-mate_industries)
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All of those details you posted where/are known to me.
The problem is. I have 17+ AR mags.
& at $50+ a magazine. It would take me forever to get that for the M1A
It makes more since for me this way. Hell this AR build might even turn the tables on my opinion.
Where looking at a 14.5" Barrel & a battle comp. Gissele trigger group at 3 1/2 pound pull. Ambi everything.
and some other details I'm not willing to discuss yet. ;D
now i dont know anything about that trigger, but i personally wont use any trigger thats not milspec i just dont trust those super light match ones, i dont think they can take the abuse that milspec ones can. and my trigger pull is really good right now.
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thanks for the link. But I know of checkmate and I don't trust their work.
I have seen them become faulty on extremely stupid conditions that should not have been an issue.
And even at $20 I get AR mags for free, and will for the next 12 months.
You cant be free bro.
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All of those details you posted where/are known to me.
The problem is. I have 17+ AR mags.
& at $50+ a magazine. It would take me forever to get that for the M1A
It makes more since for me this way. Hell this AR build might even turn the tables on my opinion.
Where looking at a 14.5" Barrel & a battle comp. Gissele trigger group at 3 1/2 pound pull. Ambi everything.
and some other details I'm not willing to discuss yet. ;D
now i dont know anything about that trigger, but i personally wont use any trigger thats not milspec i just dont trust those super light match ones, i dont think they can take the abuse that milspec ones can. and my trigger pull is really good right now.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm)
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All of those details you posted where/are known to me.
The problem is. I have 17+ AR mags.
& at $50+ a magazine. It would take me forever to get that for the M1A
I'll not argue what's best for you, as only you can truly know this. However, if you go to this link you can be pleasantly surprised...these are 20-rd M1A mags made by Checkmate Industries, the same manufacturer who produces the Springfield Armory mags (if I remember correctly). They also are current U.S. military-issued M14 mags. They are possibly the most reliable M1A mags on the market, from what I have read. They are currently $26 each, brand new, or $24 each if you purchase 10, from 44Mag.com. I thought I told you this before in another thread?
Also, the Springfield SOCOM you have/had is also an excellent make from an excellent manufacturer. The best in its class. I'm not saying that the AR you are interested in building is inferior in quality...but I will say that you'd be hard pressed to prove that the M1A you have/had is inferior to it. Unless, of course, you plan on becoming a lefty. ;D
[url]http://www.44mag.com/product/m1a_m14_magazine_20_usgi/check-mate_industries[/url] ([url]http://www.44mag.com/product/m1a_m14_magazine_20_usgi/check-mate_industries[/url])
hel yeah rah! im gona order a few of those for my pops. and tell him to order a few also lol
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[url]http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm[/url])
sheeeeit i stand corrected, that sounds pretty Fin cool. but i love my DD trigger and i would rather spend the extra money on a WMD guns BCG.
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[url]http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm[/url])
sheeeeit i stand corrected, that sounds pretty Fin cool.
Roger that.
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spirit whatever you do dont get rid of your 22, my grandpa has killed almost every animal in the south with a 22 at one time or another
Bwb I was trollin.
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spirit whatever you do dont get rid of your 22, my grandpa has killed almost every animal in the south with a 22 at one time or another
Bwb I was trollin.
WE KNOW yaDOUCHE
lol
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spirit whatever you do dont get rid of your 22, my grandpa has killed almost every animal in the south with a 22 at one time or another
Bwb I was trollin.
WE KNOW yaDOUCHE
lol
Apparently he did not.
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Well, at least he won't be crushed by the weight of all that .308 on the market. ;D
But really though, I've been looking at some sweet M1A rifles. Only bad thing is the price, and as I said, lack of plentyful ammo.
Well, like I've told many others...if you get an M1A, you really do not need another rifle. These are the advantages I've seen: I've shot mine, and it is very easy to control shot placement. Not much kick. The caliber is very accurate out to 800-1,000+ yards if you know what you're doing (can't see using this much, but it's good to know). This also tells me that it will be much more accurate than an AK as distance increases (not that the AK is a bad weapon). It will penetrate many kinds of "cover" that the 5.56 cannot.
Another benefit, in my opinion, is that it also doesn't resemble the stereotypical "evil black assault rifle" that the public has been indoctrinated against. The M1A actually looks like any other hunting rifle with a 5 or 10-rd magazine (easily switchable), especially if you get one that has a camouflage stock. So, you get the capabilities of a battle rifle without sheeple freaking out the second they see it.
Another added benefit that the advocates of AKs and ARs do not seem to consider, is the M1A's ability to load ammunition via stripper clips (unless you have a scope/rail mounted on top). If I do run out of loaded mags, if I have a bandoleer with me, I can load 10-rd stripper clips all day long, without pausing. It's not as effective as loading magazines, but I won't be out of the fight for 1-2 minutes while I'm trying to load, thereby providing the enemy at least a few seconds to a minute to fire and maneuver to a different location. If you lose sight of the opposition's position, you might end up dead.
Yes, you will pay more for 7.62 NATO and .308. However, you probably will not use more than a few thousand rounds of ammo. I purchased 2 200-rd battle packs of German mil-surp 7.62 ammo for less than $200 from Cheaper Than Dirt. I have had some feeding problems with mine (one out of every ten on average, for a grand total of 60 rounds, would fail to completely load from the mag to the chamber). However, through a member of this forum (or former member, rather) who is very knowledgeable on such things, I have been told that this ammunition is actually of good quality and it's probably some maintenance I need to perform on my M1A. Still working on that. Anyway, quality ammunition can be had for a decent price if you look around for it. Currently, Cheaper Than Dirt has 1,000 rds of Lake City 7.62 for $604. That's only $0.61 per round, for mil-spec 7.62 from an American manufacturer. Excellent deal, if you have the money.
i was about to tear this apart but i will take the highroad here [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
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What is the high road for if not raining down death, destruction and judgement?
BTW that's a smart ass rhetorical question :) just can't seem to help myself sometimes.
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thatguy says i got to play nice now that i got that moderator title :(
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i was about to tear this apart but i will take the highroad here [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
Look, I didn't say that the M1A does EVERYTHING. It doesn't. I also didn't say that it is the best rifle out there. There is no "best" rifle out there. Rifles are suited to certain situations. The M1A excels at some, and is not so good at others. It's not the lightest rifle in the world, the ammunition is not light, the ammunition can be expensive compared to 5.56 and 7.62x39, it's ammo cap is 20 max, and it's not the weapon most military and police forces use (DMs sometimes have upgraded versions of the M14, but that's all I've ever seen).
Everything that I said in that post is true. It is possible, with a proper M1A platform, to make 800-1,000 yard shots. AK's are not as accurate at a distance as M1As. 5.56 ammunition is not capable of the same level of penetration as a similar 7.62x51 ammunition. The public DOES have an "evil black rifle" mindset due to the media, and the M1A (unless you modify it) looks more like a hunting rifle from a distance. It can load stripper clips (AKs and ARs cannot). It is possible to get decently-priced 7.62 ammunition.
So, I don't see how you could have "torn this apart." ::)
If you have information countering mine, I'd be glad to hear it. If I'm wrong on a point, I'll correct my view, thank you for providing the correct information, and move on. ;)
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Well, at least he won't be crushed by the weight of all that .308 on the market. ;D
But really though, I've been looking at some sweet M1A rifles. Only bad thing is the price, and as I said, lack of plentyful ammo.
Well, like I've told many others...if you get an M1A, you really do not need another rifle. These are the advantages I've seen: I've shot mine, and it is very easy to control shot placement. Not much kick. The caliber is very accurate out to 800-1,000+ yards if you know what you're doing (can't see using this much, but it's good to know). This also tells me that it will be much more accurate than an AK as distance increases (not that the AK is a bad weapon). It will penetrate many kinds of "cover" that the 5.56 cannot.
Another benefit, in my opinion, is that it also doesn't resemble the stereotypical "evil black assault rifle" that the public has been indoctrinated against. The M1A actually looks like any other hunting rifle with a 5 or 10-rd magazine (easily switchable), especially if you get one that has a camouflage stock. So, you get the capabilities of a battle rifle without sheeple freaking out the second they see it.
Another added benefit that the advocates of AKs and ARs do not seem to consider, is the M1A's ability to load ammunition via stripper clips (unless you have a scope/rail mounted on top). If I do run out of loaded mags, if I have a bandoleer with me, I can load 10-rd stripper clips all day long, without pausing. It's not as effective as loading magazines, but I won't be out of the fight for 1-2 minutes while I'm trying to load, thereby providing the enemy at least a few seconds to a minute to fire and maneuver to a different location. If you lose sight of the opposition's position, you might end up dead.
Yes, you will pay more for 7.62 NATO and .308. However, you probably will not use more than a few thousand rounds of ammo. I purchased 2 200-rd battle packs of German mil-surp 7.62 ammo for less than $200 from Cheaper Than Dirt. I have had some feeding problems with mine (one out of every ten on average, for a grand total of 60 rounds, would fail to completely load from the mag to the chamber). However, through a member of this forum (or former member, rather) who is very knowledgeable on such things, I have been told that this ammunition is actually of good quality and it's probably some maintenance I need to perform on my M1A. Still working on that. Anyway, quality ammunition can be had for a decent price if you look around for it. Currently, Cheaper Than Dirt has 1,000 rds of Lake City 7.62 for $604. That's only $0.61 per round, for mil-spec 7.62 from an American manufacturer. Excellent deal, if you have the money.
first off, as far as controlability, yeah it works fine until your trying to put multiple rounds on a target and shift to other targets in a hurry
sure it will penetrate cover better than 5.56 or 7.62x39 but i seriously doubt the guy with the ar15 will be the one who is pinned down........
personally the blck rifle thing holds no merit with me, any gun will be seen as a problem, it dont matter what kind it is, guns will scare the sheeple
as far as loading your rifle with 10rd stripper clips oh well, i can carry 20 30rd magazines for my ar15 so wtf do i care about loading 10rds at a time..
even at that i can load up a ar15 mag with strippers and get back into action in under 30 seconds
plus the price of everything
you paid 1400 for the rifle
then you got to pay out the ass for magazines
and on top of that your paying crazy ass prices for the ammo
let me guess how many rounds you got through your rifle...... [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
i can get an ar15 and 2,000 rds of m855 for the price of your rifle alone
all i'm trying to do is break up some of this m1a/308 worship i see
especially when you got a guy who can hardly afford the fucking gun let alone to train with it
even at that you only got a few hundred rounds through your rifle max and already your rounds wont chamber due to you needing to service your rifle
these ar's and ak's are shooting thousands of rounds with no maintenance before they have one malfunction
i'm not trying to be a dick, i just dont want to see guys o out and arm themselves with a system that is not as good in todays world and they cant afford to train or prep with
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first off, as far as controlability, yeah it works fine until your trying to put multiple rounds on a target and shift to other targets in a hurry
sure it will penetrate cover better than 5.56 or 7.62x39 but i seriously doubt the guy with the ar15 will be the one who is pinned down........
personally the blck rifle thing holds no merit with me, any gun will be seen as a problem, it dont matter what kind it is, guns will scare the sheeple
Have you fired an M1A? I have. It was very controllable, for me anyway. Hardly any rise when firing, IMO.
It's nice to know you assume that the 5.56 guy will always have the tactical advantage.
Regarding the "black rifle" hysteria...perhaps it's because you live in Colorado that you see it differently. I've heard many times here in much-more-urban Georgia that "those people don't need assault rifles for hunting!" So, yes, it can be relevant. Sure, any guy with a weapon is a threat. The psychological portion induced by the media is what you also have to consider.
as far as loading your rifle with 10rd stripper clips oh well, i can carry 20 30rd magazines for my ar15 so wtf do i care about loading 10rds at a time..
even at that i can load up a ar15 mag with strippers and get back into action in under 30 seconds
I didn't say that loading with strippers is ideal, but you can only carry so many mags on your belt. A bandoleer filled with ammo is easy to slip on/off, easy to carry, and provides extra ammo. A stripper clip guide is extremely useful for someone who must resort to the bandoleer.
plus the price of everything
you paid 1400 for the rifle
For a Springfield M1A...there are cheaper alternatives.
then you got to pay out the ass for magazines
Not true. Cheaper Than Dirt sells mags for less than $10/each. You may have to tweak 2 out of 5, but if you do that they've run perfectly fine from the reviews I've seen.
and on top of that your paying crazy ass prices for the ammo
Really? How is .60/round a crazy price? I've seen 5.56 for not much less, for a less capable caliber.
let me guess how many rounds you got through your rifle......
I have only a few thus far, due only to my inability to get to a range...due to time and money concerns. I have several hundred rounds of 7.62 NATO ready to fire, because I got them for a good price.
i can get an ar15 and 2,000 rds of m855 for the price of your rifle alone
Yep, with fewer capabilities. What do you have, now? You have an AR for combat, then you'll probably rely on a different, higher-caliber bolt-action for long-range/hunting. With my M1A, I have the better capabilities of both, combined. You plan on carrying around two rifles and ammunition and parts if SHTF? I seriously doubt it.
all i'm trying to do is break up some of this m1a/308 worship i see
I like my M1A no more than you apparently like your ARs and cowboy-style rifles and pistols.
especially when you got a guy who can hardly afford the fucking gun let alone to train with it
Sorry, how many people here can actually afford to train with an AR or AK right now? Financial abilities are relative. As I have said, it is possible to obtain a less expensive M1A and purchase economical milsurp ammo that works just fine.
even at that you only got a few hundred rounds through your rifle max and already your rounds wont chamber due to you needing to service your rifle
Based on what information? Go browse The Firing Line forums, and learn a bit more about what an M1A is capable of doing.
these ar's and ak's are shooting thousands of rounds with no maintenance before they have one malfunction Some are, some aren't. Depends on the make, ammo shot through them, etc. You are embellishing, by implying that all ARs and AKs will work flawlessly for thousands of rounds, in an attempt to prove your point. It's not working, and it's beneath you.
i'm not trying to be a dick, i just dont want to see guys o out and arm themselves with a system that is not as good in todays world and they cant afford to train or prep with
It is just as good today as it was when it was first manufactured. Better, in fact, with the accessories produced today. You seem to have a higher opinion of the AR, and that's fine. It has some strengths where the M1A is weak. However, the opposite is also very true. Ultimately, it's going to come down to what your needs are, and what your capabilities are. You just seem to think that no one should ever consider the M1A as their main rifle. You seem more biased against the M1A than I am when I support it. I never said that it didn't have certain drawbacks (like every other firearm). You're saying that it's not worth even considering. Big difference. Perhaps it doesn't work for you...that's cool. I hope you use what works for you. Just don't tell everyone else that it won't work for them, based on your own situation. ;)
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To be sure the M1A is a formidable weapon. If I could afford it right now I'd sure like to have one. If I did it would be an over watch weapon. But I don't think it would be my choice for foraging, scouting or patrolling.
The reason is the 10 round magazine vrs the 30 on other weapons. For me it's for my own feeling of well being. Every time I would get close to the end of a magazine where I'd have to make a decision of when to change mags I'd start getting this pit in my stomach.
A 10 round mag means I'd get that pit a lot more often than I'd like. Plus the length is a disadvantage when foraging through buildings.
It is a great weapon with a range the 5.56 AR's and AK's won't reach. Use what you feel good about. :)
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To be sure the M1A is a formidable weapon. If I could afford it right now I'd sure like to have one. If I did it would be an over watch weapon. But I don't think it would be my choice for foraging, scouting or patrolling.
Exactly, every weapon has its strengths. I was advocating it because, in my opinion, it seems to be able to cover all the bases adequately. I tell people I think it's superior to others not because it can do everything best, but because it will do whatever job you need it to do. It has the capability to provide hard hits, very accurate long-range shots, and also a certain amount of suppressive fire as well as the ability to pierce certain types of "cover." If you stay at home the entire time SHTF lasts, that's great. However, I would rather be able to carry one rifle that does everything I need in a rifle. I will be carrying other supplies, and I don't need to carry two rifle with two different calibers to take care of a variety of jobs. One works best for me. ;)
The reason is the 10 round magazine vrs the 30 on other weapons. For me it's for my own feeling of well being. Every time I would get close to the end of a magazine where I'd have to make a decision of when to change mags I'd start getting this pit in my stomach.
A 10 round mag means I'd get that pit a lot more often than I'd like. Plus the length is a disadvantage when foraging through buildings.
??? Not sure where you're getting your info, but the people who use the M1A usually use the 20-rd magazines. They are reliable, but not shipped with the firearm. Ther are also some 30-rd mags, but the ammunition is so heavy that no spring used thus far is capable of successfully pushing up all 30 rounds.
It is a great weapon with a range the 5.56 AR's and AK's won't reach. Use what you feel good about. :)
My thoughts, exactly.
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I wasn't aware you could get high capacity mags for them now. I guess because I haven't really looked that hard at them.
Let me say this though, there is no perfect weapon to accomplish all tasks. Unless they've also cut the length on those things I really wouldn't feel good about going into a building with one. I don't even feel good about going into a building with a standard AK. I'll be keeping an aluminum shotty in a scabbard for that.
Another consideration is cover. Generally the longer the weapon the more difficult it is to maintain majority body cover while engaging and firing from behind objects. Not to mention moving from cover to cover with a larger weapon. If you never had an awkward feeling, try moving from cover to cover while under fire. You may be moving your ass but you feel awkward and slow as hell. I suspect a longer weapon would amplify this feeling.
As I said the M1A has a reputation that was earned as a great MBR. But don't expect it to accomplish all tasks well for you. No weapon will. You may find yourself in a situation where you're just making the best of what you have. That's been successfully done before. :)
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Unless they've also cut the length on those things I really wouldn't feel good about going into a building with one......Another consideration is cover. Generally the longer the weapon the more difficult it is to maintain majority body cover while engaging and firing from behind objects. Not to mention moving from cover to cover with a larger weapon. If you never had an awkward feeling, try moving from cover to cover while under fire. You may be moving your ass but you feel awkward and slow as hell. I suspect a longer weapon would amplify this feeling.
I'm seriously looking into Kel-Tec's RFB (.308 Bullpup). I know what you're thinking, "Yeah, right, Kel-Tec, LOL!!" Well, they have been on the market for a few years now, and the reports are all good. Despite the brand, they seem to have the makings of a real battle worthy rifle. Over-engineered if anything.
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I wasn't aware you could get high capacity mags for them now. I guess because I haven't really looked that hard at them.
Let me say this though, there is no perfect weapon to accomplish all tasks.
+1,000
Unless they've also cut the length on those things I really wouldn't feel good about going into a building with one. I don't even feel good about going into a building with a standard AK. I'll be keeping an aluminum shotty in a scabbard for that.
Actually, Springfield Armory produces 4 versions of the M1A: the M1A Standard (22" length), the Scout/Squad (18"), the SOCOM 16 (16"), and the SOCOM II (16"). I wish I could have gotten a Scout/Squad instead of a Standard, but I couldn't find a good deal on it at the time and stocks were low online. The SOCOM versions have a completely redesigned gas system, and gets hotter more quickly on the supporting hand than the longer versions. Plus, their accuracy suffers drastically compared to the Standard version.
For clearing a building, I'll be using my pistol. Even a shotgun is too long, IMO. Cutting corners is a major concern with me. I like to see all that I can see ASAP while risking as little as possible. Unless I had a suppressed SBR or SBS, I wouldn't use a primary for that purpose.
Another consideration is cover. Generally the longer the weapon the more difficult it is to maintain majority body cover while engaging and firing from behind objects. Not to mention moving from cover to cover with a larger weapon. If you never had an awkward feeling, try moving from cover to cover while under fire. You may be moving your ass but you feel awkward and slow as hell. I suspect a longer weapon would amplify this feeling.
As I said the M1A has a reputation that was earned as a great MBR. But don't expect it to accomplish all tasks well for you. No weapon will. You may find yourself in a situation where you're just making the best of what you have. That's been successfully done before. :)
I completely agree with you.
([url]http://www.smileyvault.co[/url][/color)
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Unless they've also cut the length on those things I really wouldn't feel good about going into a building with one......Another consideration is cover. Generally the longer the weapon the more difficult it is to maintain majority body cover while engaging and firing from behind objects. Not to mention moving from cover to cover with a larger weapon. If you never had an awkward feeling, try moving from cover to cover while under fire. You may be moving your ass but you feel awkward and slow as hell. I suspect a longer weapon would amplify this feeling.
I'm seriously looking into Kel-Tec's RFB (.308 Bullpup). I know what you're thinking, "Yeah, right, Kel-Tec, LOL!!" Well, they have been on the market for a few years now, and the reports are all good. Despite the brand, they seem to have the makings of a real battle worthy rifle. Over-engineered if anything.
Read this thread before you buy. Somebody had a "Ka-BOOM!" at the range with a brand-new Keltec RFB.
http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47502&hilit=Keltec+RFB (http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47502&hilit=Keltec+RFB)
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Unless they've also cut the length on those things I really wouldn't feel good about going into a building with one......Another consideration is cover. Generally the longer the weapon the more difficult it is to maintain majority body cover while engaging and firing from behind objects. Not to mention moving from cover to cover with a larger weapon. If you never had an awkward feeling, try moving from cover to cover while under fire. You may be moving your ass but you feel awkward and slow as hell. I suspect a longer weapon would amplify this feeling.
I'm seriously looking into Kel-Tec's RFB (.308 Bullpup). I know what you're thinking, "Yeah, right, Kel-Tec, LOL!!" Well, they have been on the market for a few years now, and the reports are all good. Despite the brand, they seem to have the makings of a real battle worthy rifle. Over-engineered if anything.
Might be a good rifle special-k, IDK. I'm kind of an old fashioned kind of guy. I still can't believe they got rid of our vinyl records for these damn cassettes. :)
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What's a cassette?
;D
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Read this thread before you buy. Somebody had a "Ka-BOOM!" at the range with a brand-new Keltec RFB.
[url]http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47502&hilit=Keltec+RFB[/url] ([url]http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47502&hilit=Keltec+RFB[/url])
Thanks for that link/info. It is something to keep an eye on. That being said, ANY production line can produce an occasional lemon. That does seem to be the case here as this is not a reoccurring problem with the RFB.
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Nutnfancy made a video about the RFB vs the .308 SCAR and the M1a.
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Nutnfancy made a video about the RFB vs the .308 SCAR and the M1a.
Yeah, I watched the whole thing a while back. On a side note, in that 4-part video series, you get to see what a POS Keltec's PMR-30 is. Truly a POS!
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i have fired more than a few rounds through an m1a, and i wouldn't want to go into any urban battle with one
i'm not assuming that the 5.56 guy has a tactical advantage, all i was trying to say is fire superiority rules, m1a takes a major hit on that
yeah there are cheaper m1a's than the springfield, but they are not very good
sure you can get cheap mags and i'm sure they will work fine if you dont use em much, but if you really bang away with that thing and put thousands or rounds through it, the springfield armory mags have been the only ones that actually hold up 100% reliable according to 4 guys that i know who really shoot theirs
60 cents a round is crazy for foreign milsurp ball ammo
5.56 costs 25cents for m855
and i think the 5.56 is a more capable round than 308
it is better for warfare, i can hunt small game, i can hunt anything on north America with it
exactly my point you only got a couple rounds through your rifle due to your inability to get to the range and MONEY that shit costs too much for you me or everyone on here i know to really train on it with
i hunt with a 22 lever gun and a 6" 357magnum or my ar15
my ar15 is good out to 550yds wtf do i need a bolt gun for? ???
you said your rifle wont feed all the german milsurp because your rifle needs maintenance, thats where that statement came from
not all ar's and ak's are gonna run thousands of rounds without flaw, but damn near all ak47's will and pretty much all modern ar15's that cost 750 and up will run that long without fucking up
actually it is not made as good today as it was when introduced, even the springfields are made using a weaker technology, but what i was trying to say with my original statement, what i was trying to say was that in todays world the battle rifle's use is pretty fucking limited
truth is there really isnt anything "realistic" that i cant do with an ar15 or ak47 that an m1a shines at
but there are more than a few things that the ar/ak platform excel at where the m1a is clumsy at best
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i can hunt small game, i can hunt anything on north America with it (5.56)
You've got more guts than I do! :)
You know how it has been forecast that people will be turning their dogs loose as they run out of money. (or thshtf)
What about the zoo's, circus animals, and all of these idiots who have exotic African animals roaming their fenced in ranches?
We're talking elephants, water buffalo, rhinoceros, baboons with 3" teeth, lions, tigers, polar bears and maybe even some pissed off panda's. Yep Mountain, you're one brave MF. :)
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i seen elk moose bear and mtn lion all drop like a sack of bricks when they took 1 round from a 16" ar15
know your weapon
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i seen elk moose bear and mtn lion all drop like a sack of bricks when they took 1 round from a 16" ar15
know your weapon
I've heard stories of them all being dropped with a .22lr too. That doesn't mean I'm gonna try it. I'll leave that kind of stuff for you Mountain men. Us low lands rednecks don't hunt anything taller than we are with anything less than a 30 caliber bullet. LOL!
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damn flatlanders and their 30 caliber bullets.................
although i am starting to really like this ak47 i got [img]http://www.smileydesign.n
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damn flatlanders and their 30 caliber bullets.................
although i am starting to really like this ak47 i got [img]http://www.smileydesign.n
Yeah, I know you're an AR guy. But let me tell you, picking up that AK for a backup gun was a really smart move. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
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i figured for the $$ on the one i was lookin at i might as well give it a try
looks like i got a good century wasr10/63
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You guys are the only people who can take a F'ing Troll thread and make a argument about m1a's. lol
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Well the title IS M1A ;)
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You guys are the only people who can take a F'ing Troll thread and make a argument about m1a's. lol
Not only that. We then turned it into a big game hunting and AK love fest.
Further proof that there is nothing that we cannot accomplish as a group. All is possible!
LOL!
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Well, we could both go 'round and 'round in circles about the M1A...but we wouldn't get any further than we have already. So, I will agree to disagree with you. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
I've heard several experienced people say what you've already said, and I've also heard just as many say the opposite. So, I'm left to decide by myself...and I already own an M1A. Ultimately, every platform has its downsides. You just have to know your weapon, as you already said, Mtn.
***Oh, and I'm not 100% convinced that my Springfield is to blame for that ammo. I'll PM you when I discover what the problem is. I didn't clean the Cosmoline (bad advice from someone "experienced") out before I shot, so that may have been the problem. Also, the foreign milsurp ammo I got was .40 per round, not .60. The .60 I referred to is the American-made Lake City milsurp ammo on CTD. ;)
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whats that ammo stamped?
i've heard the ones stamped MEN can have feed issues
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another great thing about the m1a it can be used as a bottle opener.
so F the AR.
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another great thing about the m1a it can be used as a bottle opener.
so F the AR.
Uhh . . . don't you have an AR?
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another great thing about the m1a it can be used as a bottle opener.
so F the AR.
???
News to me...LOL
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Us low lands rednecks don't hunt anything taller than we are with anything less than a 30 caliber bullet.
Sledge hit the nail on the head with that one.
You know whats funny about all that talk though.... we have a lot of the smallest animals around.
Maybe it's because we value our lives. What do you think sledge?
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i knew you were trollin but i was just saying dont get rid of the 22 lol
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Us low lands rednecks don't hunt anything taller than we are with anything less than a 30 caliber bullet.
Sledge hit the nail on the head with that one.
You know whats funny about all that talk though.... we have a lot of the smallest animals around.
Maybe it's because we value our lives. What do you think sledge?
or perhaps its because of a lack of skill on your part?
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Us low lands rednecks don't hunt anything taller than we are with anything less than a 30 caliber bullet.
Sledge hit the nail on the head with that one.
You know whats funny about all that talk though.... we have a lot of the smallest animals around.
Maybe it's because we value our lives. What do you think sledge?
or perhaps its because of a lack of skill on your part?
Redneck... I don't care how skilled you are. Going up against a Tiger with a .22 caliber bullet on roids is just fucking stupid.
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Redneck... I don't care how skilled you are. Going up against a Tiger with a .22 caliber bullet on roids is just fucking stupid.
I'm currently living in a city with a world famous zoo AND some of the most relaxed exotic pet laws. It's not uncommon here to see someone walking their baboon or tiger down the sidewalk. Needless to say.....It's a good reason to switch to .308.
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if you are thinking there will be tigers roaming about your fuckin loony tunes [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
even at that, the chances of a predator ever attackng you is about as good as obama pulling his head out his ass
possible yes, but will it ever actually happen? NO
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if you are thinking there will be tigers roaming about your fuckin loony tunes
LOL! Famous last words! You may not have any zoo's up in the mountains. But down here they are something to think about. Also in some of those states that surround Colorado there are large wild animal ranches.
Plus in Texas, next door to CO, they have squirrels the size of brown bears. Everything is bigger in Texas. I won't go into what kind of nuts they store up for the winter. :)
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if you are thinking there will be tigers roaming about your fuckin loony tunes [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
even at that, the chances of a predator ever attackng you is about as good as obama pulling his head out his ass
possible yes, but will it ever actually happen? NO
You have me wandering...What reality do you live in? [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
The "S" hasn't even "HTF" yet, and exotic cats on the loose are a real problem where I live. It's in the news quite often.
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if you are thinking there will be tigers roaming about your fuckin loony tunes [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
even at that, the chances of a predator ever attackng you is about as good as obama pulling his head out his ass
possible yes, but will it ever actually happen? NO
You have me wandering...What reality do you live in? [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
The "S" hasn't even "HTF" yet, and exotic cats on the loose are a real problem where I live. It's in the news quite often.
Same here. And I read a headline that said there may be a problem with Black Panthers around the polling places on voting day. I saw a discovery channel show where Jaguars have been expanding their territory from South America, through Mexico, and are now in the Southern U.S. But who knew we would have a problem with them this soon?
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Same here. And I read a headline that said there may be a problem with Black Panthers around the polling places on voting day. I saw a discovery channel show where Jaguars have been expanding their territory from South America, through Mexico, and are now in the Southern U.S. But who knew we would have a problem with them this soon?
We have one of the highest exotic pet populations here, and with the economy the way it's going, owners are finding out they can't afford their pets and just turning them loose! Just this past summer, some guy opened the gates on his exotic cat sanctuary just before he committed suicide, leaving the locals and authorities to deal with a number of large cats.
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Tiger stir fry to go with all that rice I have stored.
Elsa fritters anyone >:D
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if you are thinking there will be tigers roaming about your fuckin loony tunes [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
even at that, the chances of a predator ever attackng you is about as good as obama pulling his head out his ass
possible yes, but will it ever actually happen? NO
You have me wandering...What reality do you live in? [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
The "S" hasn't even "HTF" yet, and exotic cats on the loose are a real problem where I live. It's in the news quite often.
you have tigers roaming your area?
because there is a big fuckin difference between a tiger and mtn lions, panthers, jaguars........
tigers are like 600lbs or more
whereas cougars panthers rarely hit 200lbs and jaguars "might" hit 300lbs
and none of em are very tough, shit 22mag revolvers is the preferred cougar hunting gun up here
you wish to talk reality, how many cougars jaguars and panthers have you seen in your life?
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if you are thinking there will be tigers roaming about your fuckin loony tunes [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
even at that, the chances of a predator ever attackng you is about as good as obama pulling his head out his ass
possible yes, but will it ever actually happen? NO
You have me wandering...What reality do you live in? [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
The "S" hasn't even "HTF" yet, and exotic cats on the loose are a real problem where I live. It's in the news quite often.
you have tigers roaming your area?
Not Tigers yet. But I have seen a couple of Florida Panthers in my yard, not to mention the bobcats. I make a loud meeoowww at them and they dart off into the woods.
I haven't kept an exact count, but this should be close.
Tigers - 15 to 20
Cougars (Panthers) - 30 to 45
Jaguars - 0
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Well, I said I was going to let it be, but I cannot. Mountain, if you're not hating on the M1A, you're decrying the 7.62 NATO/.308 in favor of the 5.56/.223.
If the 7.62 NATO did not have superior capabilities to the 5.56, why do police forces and the U.S. military (as well as militaries around the world) use it as a DM cartridge to reliably and accurately kill humans at distances of greater than 100-200 yards? If the 5.56 was so capable that it can easily do whatever the 7.62 NATO can, why would these organizations invest in more than one platform? The answer: the 5.56 is NOT as capable as the 7.62 NATO in fulfilling certain roles. Sure, a skilled shooter can make it perform excellently with a lot of time and practice. An equally skilled shooter could boost the 7.62 NATO's performance just as much. An AR15 could probably bring down a bear if you wanted to do so, but only if you have a combination of luck and excellent skill in shot placement. Sure, a 5.56 or a .22 can bring down a deer/human/whatever, but, again, it's all about shot placement. What if the many outside factors affecting your shot (how tired you are during WROL, how cold/hot you are, how uncomfortable you are, the adrenaline running through you, your heart rate, your breathing) prevent you from achieving that shot placement and you either miss or hit an area in which the 5.56 is not capable of seriously affecting?
If the 5.56 is just as effective as the 7.62 NATO, why have I talked to many Marines and soldiers who said they wished they could have had a FAL or an M1A chambered in 7.62 NATO issued to them instead of an M16/M4 variant, because of the enemy's ability to outdistance them or shoot through "cover" with an older, higher-caliber bolt-action rifle?
If you want to rely on the 5.56 and are comfy with it, then that's your choice and you should. You know your own mind, your own capabilities, and your own territory when it comes to defense. If you are comfortable with the thought that it will probably take 2-3 shots to knock an adrenaline-filled enemy effectively out of the fight, then go with the 5.56. No matter how you analyze it, any 5.56 load, when compared with a similar 7.62 NATO load, is not as powerful as a 7.62 NATO. If you want to be able to spray/suppress a lot more than 7.62 NATO users, then cool. Don't try to tell everybody else that because they take a different approach to defense that they are inferior. My M1A may have 10 fewer rounds per magazine, be heavier, and use more expensive ammunition, but the design is still battle-proven and reliable, uses a more powerful ammunition that is more likely to effectively take down a target in the first shot, is still able to make reliable kill shots at several hundred yards away if necessary, and can penetrate certain types of "cover" in an urban environment that the 5.56 cannot.
I prefer to have less ammo and a heavier rifle because I believe those two tools provide me with better abilities to survive: better chance to eliminate target with one shot, deny "cover" to the enemy, and make accurate kill shots at long ranges. If you like the faster-shooting, higher-cap AR system, I applaud you. You should fit your equipment to your mindset and your strategy. Just don't think that the M1A/7.62 NATO is inferior to the AR/5.56 in every essential way. It isn't. I've seen too many reports of failures of the 5.56 to stop hostiles in Afghanistan and Iraq, combined with the in-person reports I previously described, to possibly make me think that the 5.56 is just as capable of stopping a human (or anything else of similar size) as a 7.62 NATO. Shot placement, you say? Sure, if you can make the shot in that kill zone. Your target won't be standing still, you won't be calm, the environment won't always be nice for you, you won't always have time for precise aiming, and it is proven through battlefield reports that an adrenaline-filled enemy can not only withstand one round of 5.56, he can still return fire effectively despite it.
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Right tool for the job guys. If you have a choice consider yourself in a good place. If I'm on a walk in the woods dealing with mosquito bitten COD fags the ar or ak is just peachy with me, a slight preference for the ar myself. If I'm manning the road block against rabid starving yuppies driving VWs BMWs and Subaru SUVs with their attack shitzu or jack russel ready to tear me up and looking to loot my bulk packaged captain crunch and canisters of tang I want at least a 308 or 30-06, maybe 12 gauge slugs to slow down those horseless wheeled devil wagons.
I think this is my new favorite topic.
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Right tool for the job guys. If you have a choice consider yourself in a good place. If I'm on a walk in the woods dealing with mosquito bitten COD fags the ar or ak is just peachy with me, a slight preference for the ar myself. If I'm manning the road block against rabid starving yuppies driving VWs BMWs and Subaru SUVs with their attack shitzu or jack russel ready to tear me up and looking to loot my bulk packaged captain crunch and canisters of tang I want at least a 308 or 30-06, maybe 12 gauge slugs to slow down those horseless wheeled devil wagons.
LOL! I got a kick out of reading that. :) Attack shitzu's, horseless wheeled devil wagons, good stuff.
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Right tool for the job guys.
This. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
Different tools for different things. Tell your preferences and why, just don't go on a tirade because your strategies/methods and tools of choice are different than someone else's.
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All I got to say is that all you fuckers should slap yourselves. No one noticed Sledge's comment about Black Panthers being seen at polling locations?
As to 308 vs. 5.56... eh... if you want to carry all the extra weight because you think it will make you more effective at range then so be it but the only thing that will make you more effective at range is to be effective at the range.
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As to 308 vs. 5.56... eh... if you want to carry all the extra weight because you think it will make you more effective at range then so be it but the only thing that will make you more effective at range is to be effective at the range.
No, no, no...it's not about the accuracy. The 5.56 is plenty accurate. It's about the power of the caliber. That's my main concern. I'd use the AK, if I wasn't going to be at a place where I might have to make 200-300 yard shots, accurately. Having a .30 caliber cartridge and the necessary abilities all in one rifle is my goal, and that's why I picked the M1A.
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Well, I said I was going to let it be, but I cannot.
LOL! Code for "this is bugging the shit outta me and I'm gonna say something the fu@k about it!" LOL!
Oh wait, that is what a redneck like myself would say. Rah, insists on Proper English
Code for, "I have been going over this in my mind and I feel that I really must respond at this point before I burst".
LOL! Just busting Rah. I like the hell out of you! Even though you've forsaken your roots for love. :)
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Well, I said I was going to let it be, but I cannot.
LOL! Code for "this is bugging the shit outta me and I'm gonna say something the fu@k about it!" LOL!
Oh wait, that is what a redneck like myself would say. Rah, insists on Proper English
Code for, "I have been going over this in my mind and I feel that I really must respond at this point before I burst".
LOL! Just busting Rah. I like the hell out of you! Even though you've forsaken your roots for love. :)
I'm still trying to figure out...how you people know me so darn well!?!?
LoL
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A huge realization has just occurred.
Bushgardens, Animal Kingdom, Central Florida Zoo, Gator land... I'm sure I left out a couple.
Man, just think about it, Ten years after WROL and that entire time there is no natural predators. Nothing but awesome breading grounds. Man, a lot different world than I figured has just came to mind.
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Come on Rah, at 500yrds the 5.56 is still effective. Shooting 77gr at 2660 fps you are still making 441ft-lbs at 500 yards.. that is real close to the performance you are going to get out of Remington 180gr CoreLokt ammo in 308 (587ft-lbs@500yrds).
Anyone wanna take 77gr of .224 in the grape doing 1600ft per second? Lets be realistic.
Oh and that is out of a 14.5" barrel M4 [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
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Come on Rah, at 500yrds the 5.56 is still effective. Shooting 77gr at 2660 fps you are still making 441ft-lbs at 500 yards.. that is real close to the performance you are going to get out of Remington 180gr CoreLokt ammo in 308 (587ft-lbs@500yrds).
Anyone wanna take 77gr of .224 in the grape doing 1600ft per second? Lets be realistic.
Oh and that is out of a 14.5" barrel M4
I hear you, and I've seen the numbers before. However, I also know what I've heard from the guys who have served recently, and I talked about it earlier in this thread. If the 5.56 is equal to the 7.62, why do our boys feel under-gunned against a bolt-action? Numbers are one thing, and combat experience is another. Also, the 7.62 still has penetration capability the 5.56 doesn't have, and the impact is still more impressive. I don't believe I'll ever need that 500 yard shot. What I'm sure I will need is a semi-auto, reliable, with 20-rd min magazine, that has a good chance of effectively disabling an enemy in the first shot even if the shot isn't in a kill zone.
And no, I wouldn't want to be shot in the head with a .17hmr...LOL. I thought we'd established by now that we don't like getting shot in the head with ANYTHING. :P
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A key threat for me is meth heads.
And from tall tales ( Being deployed with prior deployed people )
The 5.56 literally takes a spine shot to drop someone on drugs. You have to knock someone down to put them down.
Filling someone with holes is all well in good when they can feel pain, but when they can't well the holes may kill them but what can they do to you in that 3 minutes of bleed out time?
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Hold the phone here, are you telling me I need a .30 caliber bullet to dispatch someone on meth? That seems a bit outlandish, not that ive ever shot at anyone on meth but still... Shot Placement!
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Don't get me wrong I don't think that the M1a is a bad choice I just don't think that in a urban conflict is is the best choice. When you factor the weight, cost and length I just don't see them as being a clear winner. That said a socom 16 or a 308 700 in an over watch postion.. now that is a winner.
As to meth heads, man you got to sever the brain stem. It doesn't matter what caliber you use. All the same when homeboy's guts get a taste of that supersonic shock wave I think it might slow him down.
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Well, I said I was going to let it be, but I cannot. Mountain, if you're not hating on the M1A, you're decrying the 7.62 NATO/.308 in favor of the 5.56/.223.
If the 7.62 NATO did not have superior capabilities to the 5.56, why do police forces and the U.S. military (as well as militaries around the world) use it as a DM cartridge to reliably and accurately kill humans at distances of greater than 100-200 yards? If the 5.56 was so capable that it can easily do whatever the 7.62 NATO can, why would these organizations invest in more than one platform? The answer: the 5.56 is NOT as capable as the 7.62 NATO in fulfilling certain roles. Sure, a skilled shooter can make it perform excellently with a lot of time and practice. An equally skilled shooter could boost the 7.62 NATO's performance just as much. An AR15 could probably bring down a bear if you wanted to do so, but only if you have a combination of luck and excellent skill in shot placement. Sure, a 5.56 or a .22 can bring down a deer/human/whatever, but, again, it's all about shot placement. What if the many outside factors affecting your shot (how tired you are during WROL, how cold/hot you are, how uncomfortable you are, the adrenaline running through you, your heart rate, your breathing) prevent you from achieving that shot placement and you either miss or hit an area in which the 5.56 is not capable of seriously affecting?
If the 5.56 is just as effective as the 7.62 NATO, why have I talked to many Marines and soldiers who said they wished they could have had a FAL or an M1A chambered in 7.62 NATO issued to them instead of an M16/M4 variant, because of the enemy's ability to outdistance them or shoot through "cover" with an older, higher-caliber bolt-action rifle?
If you want to rely on the 5.56 and are comfy with it, then that's your choice and you should. You know your own mind, your own capabilities, and your own territory when it comes to defense. If you are comfortable with the thought that it will probably take 2-3 shots to knock an adrenaline-filled enemy effectively out of the fight, then go with the 5.56. No matter how you analyze it, any 5.56 load, when compared with a similar 7.62 NATO load, is not as powerful as a 7.62 NATO. If you want to be able to spray/suppress a lot more than 7.62 NATO users, then cool. Don't try to tell everybody else that because they take a different approach to defense that they are inferior. My M1A may have 10 fewer rounds per magazine, be heavier, and use more expensive ammunition, but the design is still battle-proven and reliable, uses a more powerful ammunition that is more likely to effectively take down a target in the first shot, is still able to make reliable kill shots at several hundred yards away if necessary, and can penetrate certain types of "cover" in an urban environment that the 5.56 cannot.
I prefer to have less ammo and a heavier rifle because I believe those two tools provide me with better abilities to survive: better chance to eliminate target with one shot, deny "cover" to the enemy, and make accurate kill shots at long ranges. If you like the faster-shooting, higher-cap AR system, I applaud you. You should fit your equipment to your mindset and your strategy. Just don't think that the M1A/7.62 NATO is inferior to the AR/5.56 in every essential way. It isn't. I've seen too many reports of failures of the 5.56 to stop hostiles in Afghanistan and Iraq, combined with the in-person reports I previously described, to possibly make me think that the 5.56 is just as capable of stopping a human (or anything else of similar size) as a 7.62 NATO. Shot placement, you say? Sure, if you can make the shot in that kill zone. Your target won't be standing still, you won't be calm, the environment won't always be nice for you, you won't always have time for precise aiming, and it is proven through battlefield reports that an adrenaline-filled enemy can not only withstand one round of 5.56, he can still return fire effectively despite it.
i was trying to walk away from it but, lets face it i like to argue.....
all i'm trying to say is,
1. afghanistan and iraq are quite different environments from here go all over your AO and then count how many places there are where 500+ meter shots are even fucking possible
probably little to none, then use reality and come to the conclusion that damn near all your fighting will be done at under 200yds
2. this is a quote from you "better chance to eliminate target with one shot, deny "cover" to the enemy, and make accurate kill shots at long ranges."
how the fuck you gonna do any of that, when you cant even afford to shoot your fucking rifle at the range?
second quote "Shot placement, you say? Sure, if you can make the shot in that kill zone. Your target won't be standing still, you won't be calm, the environment won't always be nice for you, you won't always have time for precise aiming"
yet again, how are you going to be able to put any accurate fire down in a high stress situation like that when you barely got any rounds through your rifle cause you cant afford the platform?
battle rifles are not bad choices, all i'm saying is if you are on a budget, in all reality you would probably be better served with an ar15/ak47
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i was trying to walk away from it but, lets face it i like to argue.....
all i'm trying to say is,
1. afghanistan and iraq are quite different environments from here go all over your AO and then count how many places there are where 500+ meter shots are even fucking possible
probably little to none, then use reality and come to the conclusion that damn near all your fighting will be done at under 200yds
2. this is a quote from you "better chance to eliminate target with one shot, deny "cover" to the enemy, and make accurate kill shots at long ranges."
how the fuck you gonna do any of that, when you cant even afford to shoot your fucking rifle at the range?
second quote "Shot placement, you say? Sure, if you can make the shot in that kill zone. Your target won't be standing still, you won't be calm, the environment won't always be nice for you, you won't always have time for precise aiming"
yet again, how are you going to be able to put any accurate fire down in a high stress situation like that when you barely got any rounds through your rifle cause you cant afford the platform?
battle rifles are not bad choices, all i'm saying is if you are on a budget, in all reality you would probably be better served with an ar15/ak47
I won't deny that the ammunition is more expensive, and if I didn't already have the rifle, I probably would not get an M1A now. I only got it because we happened to get a ton of money back from a federal tax refund, didn't need it for any bills, and was able to use it to outright buy the rifle. With that said, I couldn't afford ANY ammunition right now because I don't have a job. With THAT said, I've already shown two different examples of decently priced 7.62 NATO that I could definitely practice with once I've actually been hired somewhere. I was able to stockpile 600+ rounds of 7.62 NATO just from extra financial aid I had left over, and it probably only cost me about $300-$400 (some of that was brand new American-manufactured, before I found the milsurp). So, no, I don't consider the ammo to be too expensive to train with. It will satisfy all I desire from a rifle, both in engagements closer than 200 yards and at longer distances (which, in reality, I could see the need for at the place where I would go...given certain situations, I can see a dire need for an accurate DM rifle). Therefore, in my opinion, I'm actually saving money because I've purchased a rifle that will do both quite well. I won't be saving up for a Rem 700 or similar rifle later on my "to-do" list, and then investing in a new caliber for that rifle. I can take the time to train and narrow it to only one primary weapon for many needs, and that is cool with me.
I completely agree that the AR/AK will more than serve today's shooters, and from reading/watching vids the past year I have learned more about the AR's capabilities and have a lot more respect for it. The M1A may not be as useful to someone if they don't need a rifle for long-range engagements, though I think I would prefer to have a rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO for any engagement. I think, and I've said this before, that if I was dead certain I would never need to fire beyond 200 yards (as in, an urban area), then I probably would have bought an AR or AK variant instead. I'm just saying that you seemed like you were hating on the M1A, when it does excel in some things the AR and AK platforms do not. Ultimately, it comes down to "different strokes for different folks."
There is no ultimate platform, otherwise we'd all be selling our shit to go and get it, then arguing if pink guns were more tactical than neon green guns.
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pink is the way to go, cause gettin blown away with a pink gun is worse than getting teabagged
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Come on Rah, at 500yrds the 5.56 is still effective. Shooting 77gr at 2660 fps you are still making 441ft-lbs at 500 yards.. that is real close to the performance you are going to get out of Remington 180gr CoreLokt ammo in 308 (587ft-lbs@500yrds).
Anyone wanna take 77gr of .224 in the grape doing 1600ft per second? Lets be realistic.
Oh and that is out of a 14.5" barrel M4 [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
im not familair with the 180 grain corelokt load but im assuming this is still a .308 win/7.62X51 NATO load?... if so then that seems way too low.. just for comparison a similar load, your looking at 1248 ft/lbs of energy with a 175 grain sierra bullet at 500 yards with a very realistic 2600 ft/s muzzle velocity that would easily be achieved out of a 20'' barrel.
the energy of the 2 cartridges is night and day and in these two examples the .308 is around 2-3 times the energy. and im not trying to jump into this battle royal but im just keeping the stats straight.
carry on gentlemen...
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Come on Ken! I am trying to compare the weakest 308 load I could find to the hottest 5.56 you can buy and it took you this long to bust me on it? SLACKER!
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Come on Ken! I am trying to compare the weakest 308 load I could find to the hottest 5.56 you can buy and it took you this long to bust me on it? SLACKER!
Well, I'm glad that Ken stepped up...I was lost on that one. He does shoot a LOT more than I do, and at long ranges to boot, so I don't feel too bad about being outclassed here. :D
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:)
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Come on Ken! I am trying to compare the weakest 308 load I could find to the hottest 5.56 you can buy and it took you this long to bust me on it? SLACKER!
sorry i fell asleep in my snipers nest again... fucking thing is comfortable...
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Hey Ken, on the 308 topic what do you think about rebarreling a Mauser to 308?
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Hey Ken, on the 308 topic what do you think about rebarreling a Mauser to 308?
Rebarreling it to shoot .308 winchester? i dont think that would really work because id imagine the entire action is different then that of a .308Win/7.62X51... but i dont really know anything about the guns as i only had my M48A for a short while and never really played with it.
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Hey Ken, on the 308 topic what do you think about rebarreling a Mauser to 308?
Here's more info on the subject:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321483 (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321483)
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Stupid simple barrel swap and finish chambering with short chambered blanks from brownells, midway, or your choice, no bolf face or extractor mods needed. I've done more than a few, to make it easy to remove the old barrel just make a shallow cut around the barrel where the shoulder meets the receiver to relieve the pressure from the original torquing (I've had them practically unscrew by hand with a relief cut). It's good to leave a couple thousandths of metal between your cut and the receiver so you don't screw up the receiver face. You also will have to make an extractor relief cut but I've seen that done with a dremel and a steady hand.
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Colombo are you a member at weaponsguild?
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Colombo are you a member at weaponsguild?
Yep, Ain't posted there in a while. Other projects eating up the time but I still lurk occasionally. Lots of good info and knowledge there.
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That is how it looked to me Colombo.. tell me about this extractor relief cut.
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Hey Ken, on the 308 topic what do you think about rebarreling a Mauser to 308?
Rebarreling it to shoot .308 winchester? i dont think that would really work because id imagine the entire action is different then that of a .308Win/7.62X51... but i dont really know anything about the guns as i only had my M48A for a short while and never really played with it.
my dads got a mauser in .308 ive never shot it but he says it fires great, he picked it up cheap years ago..
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That is how it looked to me Colombo.. tell me about this extractor relief cut.
Four parts, this one covers the cut
http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?showtopic=4342 (http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?showtopic=4342)
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Kind of related tip on 308 mausers, the spanish ones particularly fr-7 (not the fr-8) and any small ring type reciever also. As a general rule are older recievers with the corresponding metallurgy and no safety lug, know what your feeding it (no hot loads ever) I would avoid any small ring mausers chambered in 308 as a personal rule.