Hold my hand for a second.

[themighty9mm]

When I think of SHTF. I think of it as anything as simple as needing to defend ones life during a burgerlary or riots, to drought/flood/tornado natural disasters. Then even as far as terrorism or economic collapse. From things that will last minuets, to potentially years and anything inbetween. I fully agree with the group aspect for number of reasons.

Now forgive me please if I am in some way crossing a line here. However I must be missing something. I have read posts on this forum and others and watched you tube vids, where people are talking about patrolling their area of operations, and speaking of missions. What exactly does this mean? I know what the terms mean. However exactly what sort of missions are people talking about? And what area of operations?

I can understand wanting to keep a perimeter around you for safety. I get that. However unless all the people that speak of this are out in the country side they are more likely than not is some sort of city/town setting. The neighboors or people around you that you do not know, will also be wanting to keep their own perimeter if they have any means of doing so. So how big of a perimeter are people talking about? I have to assume at a certain point ones own concerns of a perimeter will step on someone elses. Inturn leading to uneeded fights. Fight that could be very costly. Fights that could easily be avoided. So are we talking a few feet? Entire blocks or more? At some point everyone in "your AO" may not be on board. Or may have other plans. So then what? Kick them out of their house, potentially starting more fights? Or just move on? Or what? They may very well not be a threat in any way, just not wanting other people patrolling their personal bubble.

Then as far as missions. What sort of missions are people talking about? Some sort of black ops ninja delta 5 mission? Or simply gathering food/ water from local resources?

To finish off. How exactly would one determin the enemy unless the enemy was obviously shooting or in some way a signifigant threat? If a group or random people accidentally wander into ones AO are they ded on the spot? Whif all they wanted to do was ask wtf is going on here? Or can they help in some way? How would you determin an enemy that wasnt shooting from a distance way? Say you make FTF contact, turns out they want to stab you in the sheath. Or the same person may just be around to say I have food, need water. IMO I would imagine most engagements are going to be at short distances. So unless glaringly obvious how would one determine friend or foe? Is everyone just going to hold everyone else at gun point untill it is decided? Doesnt seem like a real brilliant idea, and would cause for otherwise friendly people to shoot back.

I know I am sounding uber liberal here. I assure you I am not. But after reading and hearing these terms several times it really got my thinking. So hold my hand for a moment and please explain to me what I am missing. As it seems to me one would want to avoid all conflict if possible. Trying not to pose a unnecessary threat. I can see some of these actions unintentionally possing very uncessecary threats. So what am I missing? Or am I just flat looking at it all wrong. I have always thought the idea was to first survive, then live and avoid being the aggressor if at all possible. I know if I saw a group of guys from 2 or 3 blocks over "patrolling their AO" in my block all with guns, my first thought would be to assume they are not friendly and have chosen to be wolves and take what they can from whomever. I most likely would not fire upon them untill they had proven that to me However untill they had proven me wrong I would feel it was a safe bet. So what are others thoughts here?

[sledge]

Sorry, holding hands with another guy is not something that is ever gonna happen.

But I'll try to answer some of your questions which are very good by the way.  I'm really tired right now so I'm not too sure how this is going to turn out but here goes. 

The answers to all of your questions are relative to what the situation actually is.  We do not know what that is going to be.  There could be an economic collapse that is a slow burn or a sudden drop off the cliff.  Depending on which would occur would dictate what your response would be.  The same with some kind of catastrophe.  How bad it is determines your options.   

I don't think anyone (here at least) is talking about any kind of covert military type ninja missions.  Missions would be defined by what need they were solving.  They could range from foraging for food and supplies, to collecting firewood, to searching for game tracks, to scouting operations, to attacking unfriendly aggressors on their own turf.  It all depends on what the need is that caused the mission to be undertaken.

A perimeter is just an area of variable size that the decision has been made to watch in order to not to be surprised.  The size would depend upon how many people you can assign to watch it and still get other work that needs to be done accomplished.  You can also use trip devices like wires and bells to enhance your perimeter security.  (Just be aware that these can be bypassed by an intruder.)  Although, nothing beats a set of eyes for security as long as they don't fall asleep. 

Depending on the situation, just because someone enters your perimeter doesn't mean they are a threat.  They could be a threat particularly if you don't know them.  Or they could just be coming in order to trade.  The trick is to not be surprised by their arrival regardless of what their motive is.

If things get bad there is going to be a migration of people.  A lot of people.  Look at the dust storms of the 30's and 40's.  Texas and Oklahoma are littered with the remains of peoples abandoned homes from that era when people simply left.  Look at the migration of people (mostly men) during the Great Depression.  Anytime there is severe economic hardship a migration of people occurs.

Whether you become part of the migration yourself or stay put because you feel secure in your supplies, you are going to find yourself dealing with this migration.  I've seen some say with bravado that they will shoot anyone who breaks their perimeter, if they see someone that person will be considered a threat.  But I think that's a foolish approach.  Not unlike the old west, I don't think you can just shoot someone who approaches your camp or ranch, or squatters shack.  You can be wary and cautious so as not to be surprised. 

But to go into hostile mode with someone whom you don't know what their intentions are could cause you more problems than you can handle.  They (a group or one person alone) could be just passing through and then all of a sudden their taking fire.  It will be no different after tshtf than it is today.  There are still going to be people who just want to be left alone that you are best off not starting shit with.  Not even if you have a larger group.  I'd take a 10 person trained unit over a 50 person group with limited training any day. 

Not to mention that some of those people may have skills that your group needs and doesn't possess.

This isn't to say you won't encounter groups or individuals you may have to fight.  In all likelihood you will.  But to assume that is everyone would be a mistake.  The key is to not be surprised and to evaluate those you encounter.

Did I answer some your questions.  I hope so.  I'm really tired.

     

         

[WhiskeyJack]

Hey there 9mm.
Really excellent questions bro. I'm glad you are really thinking about the meanings of the things we discuss here.
Sledge put it very well. I would just like to add to it.
An AO is area of operation. That is any place you or members of your community are. An AO can be your perimeter or the area you have decided to recon.
As far as perimeters and barricades they are there to provide your community security first. But they also let the migrating masses know that you are well prepared to deal with threats. Think of them as deterants to violence. If people see they are out gunned by a superior force with a superior position they are less apt to get frisky.
Concerning the question of towns cities and patrolling. your question concerning patrolling is Probably the best. My answer is. At the out set of a long term situation you MUST communicate and coordinate with the people in your community. You will have folks who want to be left alone but many folks will seek safety in numbers. and given a little time even the loners will see that they would be better off with some help.
If their is one thing that i feel will be an asset in a bad time would be a community based response and communication with the people in the community. i.e. Try to get every one on the same page and working towards a common goal. As far as neighboring communities. I Say try to make alliances. While you may be separate entities it doesn't mean you cant be helpful to each other.
And the holding everyone at gunpoint comment that was a good one. My answer to that would be dictated by situation. If your away from your home i say avoid any potential encounters unless you have a need. but on your own borders you may have to be a little more belligerent to get your point across.
And like sledge said we aren't talking secret squirrel mall ninja black ops. I think that some of the info here is a little easier to digest if your prior service and have had a training and experience with some of the concepts. But its not all about shooting anything that moves. its about being smart, patient and assessing the situations on a case by case basis. I hope this helps a little. sry I'm pressed for time and cant go into greater detail. But i would like to suggest that you read one second after by William forstchen. (i think i spelled the name wrong) Look at the actions of the community in that book. What the author put out in that book may answer allot of your questions about how some of these concepts may work in the real world. PM me if you have any more question man. ill do what ever i can to answer them or help you find answers.

[themighty9mm]

Sledge and whiskey. That does clear it up a bit I am not so much prior service, but do understand the base concepts of it all. It was just at times, especially from a new comer stand point some of it could come off as almost, for lack of better words, extremist. At times without knowing more details almost came off to makes preppers appear to be more of a threat than the rest of the general population. I was pretty sure that wasnt the case. This clairifies it. Thanks for taking the time keeping me on the right track. Oh an whiskey jack I will check into that book this coming weekend.

Lol and the holding hands thing was just a figure of speach. No homo, I'm happily married to a beautiful woman

[WhiskeyJack]

NP 9mm
If you were getting the wrong impression from my threads please keep in mind that i base most of them on post collapse senarioes. No one here really wants WROL or the fall of our society. And i think most members would agree. we dont want to do any thing to hasten that day. We just want to be ready if it ever comes. I dont know about everyone here but i still have health insurance i am thinking of retirement and someday i want to take my grand kids to disneyworld(when i have grand kids that is) I think of it as my beans and bullets insurance policy. You just cant get it at statefarm. If WROL never hapens in my lifetime i will consider myself blessed and have to eat alot of beans and rice. On this one i really hope i end up being wrong and have to let the world say i told you so.   [url=http://www.freesmileys.or

[themighty9mm]

No wrong impression, just sort of making sure this is infact a place I want to be associated with. I think I chose well 

[NOLA556]

mighty9, I think Whiskey and Sledge pretty much hit the nail on the head. the only thing I would elaborate on just a bit is your question about perimeters in a city/town. Whiskey touched on it pretty well, but just to elaborate... like Whiskey said, it's a communication issue. you're not just going to become dictator of your next door neighbor's property... you'll have to speak with him/her, along with the rest of the immediate community and try to decide on a plan of action. I'd be willing to bet that if the situation was bad enough, most folks in the suburbs would be more than happy to allow a young strapping fellow to provide for their safety and security.

also, One Second After is a fantastic book, good suggestion Whiskey. I'd also recommend "Patriots" by James W. Rawles to the list, but just keep in mind, the storyline is great IMO but it's rather poorly written. but it does touch on a huge list of things to think about.

[rah45]

I'd like to add another book for your review, 9mm. You should read Lights Out. It's very unrealistic regarding the economic opportunities during SHTF, but it has some really great security ideas and scenarios that you should consider. Also, it is very well written.