Author Topic: His reasoning on Faraday cages.  (Read 536 times)

Offline JoJo

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His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« on: March 19, 2018, 09:40:18 AM »
 I received this email even though I don't go to this site anymore. I think the moderators are arrogant to newbee's and someone who asks a question that someone asked previously.



"For the EMP "experts" and nuclear preppers" update
Survivalist Forum
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You are subscribed to the thread "For the EMP "experts" and nuclear preppers" by paramilusmc, there have been 1 post(s) to this thread, the last poster was Dave_C.
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=387592

These following posts were made to the thread:
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http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=18025714#post18025714
Posted by: Dave_C
On: 03-18-2018 09:00 PM

I tried to read all of the more technical posts in this thread. Although I might have missed some details, it seems to me that most of them discuss electromagnetic shielding in terms of electric and/or magnetic field shielding--charge cancellation, eddy currents, magnetic saturation, etc. And that's how I originally understood EM shielding--that a good shield must handle both the electric field (E field) and the magnetic field (H field). But contrary to this view, I learned that the E and H components of *far-field* electromagnetic radiation don't act independently--in fact, they don't exist apart from one another. Although dipole and loop antennas interact with an EM wave differently (the E field induces current in a dipole, and the H field induces current in a loop), shielding acts by a different set of principles.

Shielding of far-field electromagnetic radiation works through reflection and absorption, not through field cancellation and/or redirection of magnetic lines of flux. When far-field EM radiation traveling in air, like an EMP, hits a conductive barrier, part of the radiation is reflected, part propagates through the shielding material, and part is re-transmitted into air at the inner surface of the shield. Reflection occurs when there's an impedance mismatch between two materials--the bigger the difference, the bigger the reflection. Metals provide good reflection because their wave impedance is very low relative to air. Reflection is not affected by field strength, so even a very thin, metal shield will provide good E1 EMP protection. Radiation that propagates through the shield material is attenuated according to its thickness. If the material provides good reflection, thickness need not be considered.

EMP is far-field radiation. In the far field (i.e., at a distance from the source that's greater than a particular minimum distance), the E field and H field are inseparable--they exist in a constant ratio (which is 377 ohms, the wave impedance of free space), and wave attenuation can be accomplished as I described above.

HOWEVER, not all of the radiation that hits an object in a HEMP event comes directly from the source--from the area directly below the blast. Some of it comes in the form of near-field radiation. This occurs because when the EMP wave hits an unshielded conductor, like a power cord or extension cord, the conductor becomes an antenna that both receives and re-radiates the incoming wave. Depending on the length of the conductor and the distance between it and a shielded enclosure (your "Faraday" bag or box) the enclosure might lie within the near field of the radiating conductor. The near field is an area near an antenna where the E and H field can exist independently and where either the E or H field can dominate.

So, if your shielding bag, box or can is located some relatively close distance from unshielded conductors, it's possible that significant near-field energy could make it to the enclosure. In that case, your enclosure's ability to cancel an AC electric field or redirect the lines of flux in an AC magnetic field would come into play as some of you have discussed. And, as you've discussed, this can be difficult, particularly in the case of an AC magnetic field at 1 MHz with a field strength in the neighborhood of 133 A/m. Off the top of my head, a centimeter-or-more-thick shell of copper or aluminum (or a thinner piece of steel) would be required to protect your items.

I haven't done this yet, but I plan to look at the wavelengths of radiation in the frequency range of EMP in order to figure out the lengths of conductors that could cause near-field problems as described above, and the minimum distance that a shielding enclosure must be stored away from them. I think this is vital information that some of the online EMP experts don't discuss (although I think Jerry Emanuelson discusses how damaging a tangle of wires can be in an EMP at his website, futurescience.com--or, maybe he mentioned that in an email).

I'm not an engineer, but I've made digging into the physics of electromagnetic shielding a nearly full-time effort over the past couple of months. A Google of "electromagnetic shielding theory" provides some good resources. The website, electronics.stackexchange.com, has been a good learning tool--it and a lot of online research helped me go from newbie questions to a useful understanding of basic theory that comes from and is supported by authoritative sources. The accepted answer to this question (https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/361022/electromagnetic-shielding-and-emp/361442#361442) at stackexchange summarizes what I've learned about electromagnetic shielding.

Of course, I'm open to correction from some of you physics guys on all of this.

All the best,
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Offline Nemo

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 09:58:07 AM »
Can someone translate that please?  The way I understand it is that basically we are all going to die.

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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 10:11:57 AM »
What I think he is writing is that your basic metal trash can Faraday cage may not be enough due to reflection of a unshielded metal surface, e.g. boiler, furnace, bundle of wires, washing machine, dryer, etc.

This gentleman wants to figure out the thickness needed for your Faraday cage to not only cancel a EMP blast but the reflection of unshielded hunks of metal.

Another option and much more simple, is keep your Faraday cage away from large hunks of metal that could reflect the burst of energy.   
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Offline zeerf

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 01:08:32 PM »
I am no expert in any of this. I saw this guys videos and some folks over at Ammron tracked down the same seal he was trying to sell much cheaper.

Again I am not claiming this would help or is the ticket just sharing what I have seen and hope some smarter than I could add input :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cbw-PaW3zI

Code: [Select]
the post was asking about the gasket used part number 732-10222-ND from [url=http://www.digikey.com]www.digikey.com[/url] about 5.83 each. Again no idea if this is enough but this seems like cheap insurance for a chance of protecting some of your critical gear.
The forum mentions how the cost from his link in video is much higher... disasterpreparer.com/emp-gaskets/ (40.00 for 2)

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 03:59:08 PM »
Dr. Bradley is the Author of the Survivalist Series which many of you have read but I am just starting.

zeerf, no rush but if you could find the link over at AMMRON for the gasket and share with the group or anybody reading this that would be great.

On the ammo can, take out the plastic gasket, sand like he did and replace with steel wool.
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Offline Jackalope

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 06:30:25 PM »
   I don't buy what was hypothesized in Jojo's post.  It doesn't match up with wave theory.  If Dave C.'s theory is correct, then the waves would amplify and continue on infinitum.

    I would stick with what Dr. Bradley proposes and how the U.S. military protects their equipment.  Shielding equipment properly should be adequate.  Very little if any of the EMP will penetrate a metallic enclosure.

    About 30 years ago I was a volunteer at a Statewide communications center, it was the location where the Governor would go in the event of a nuclear attack.  The subterranean site had blast doors, escape hatches, an infirmary, multiple dormitories, professional broadcasting booth, etc.  Anyways, the communications center was inside a metal enclosure, and the door had metallic fingers around the edges.  There were minute gaps between the metallic fingers, but the engineers felt that there would still be adequate protection from an EMP.   Even the antenna supports were blast hardened.  I forget the exact figures, but supposedly the site could handle 5 or 10 megaton blast within two miles of the site.  I always wondered what kind of antenna wire and coax would survive the heat from the blast. 

     Getting back to my original train of thought, it seems that small gaps shouldn't be that problematic, but we won't really know until an event.  Though I think Dr. Bradley's videos show the need for minimizing ad eliminating any gaps.  In my case, I tend to use multiple layers of protection, just in case, especially for important equipment

Offline Kbop

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 07:56:46 PM »
@Jackalope - i think you are correct - he forgot the attenuation @cube of the distance rule.  if you stick your faraday cage next to the gamma & x-ray burst - it won't be thick enough.  but you will be inside the nearfield effect.  the point is moot because your faraday cage will vaporize a fraction of a second later.  The signal attenuates as a log(F) not as a linear(F) standing wave.   
@JM's point.  i agree.  don't wrap your power line mains around the trash can a half dozen times to gain large coupling.  the magnetohydrodynamic effects are such a low frequency they won't harm anything under a quarter wavelength of something like 100Hz or so - bad for your powerplant attached to miles of transmission lines but not your faraday cage - there isn't enough coupling there.  Your cage needs to be about -90dBm for the E1/E2 pulses.  This is why a CME (dangerous E3) is different than a HEMP (dangerous E1 moderate E2 and smaller E3). 

the foam gasketing is used on surfaces that need to flex over and over again - like an access door in a radio or to a sensitive measurement circuit - this is for an application where metal fingers won't work because the frequency is too high - for something you want to seal and leave - use foil tape or aluminum foil.  if you want to get fancy use steel wool -like JM mentioned.  you just need a metal gasket capable of stopping 2-3GHz.

Offline zeerf

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 09:16:32 PM »
Dr. Bradley is the Author of the Survivalist Series which many of you have read but I am just starting.

zeerf, no rush but if you could find the link over at AMMRON for the gasket and share with the group or anybody reading this that would be great.

On the ammo can, take out the plastic gasket, sand like he did and replace with steel wool.


http://amrron.proboards.com/thread/1827/garbage-faraday-gasket
http://amrron.proboards.com/post/11758
should be them.

Offline JoJo

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 09:56:40 PM »
 I'm in the process of designing a cage for my generator and your (all of you) advice about the wrap would be helpful. I bought 1/4" mesh wire cloth to cover the cage but was thinking of using aluminum screen cloth. Your thoughts please.
 Also does anyone have a plan or idea for a door that would seal the cage. 32"L x 32"W x 24"H 
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Offline pkveazey

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 01:29:24 AM »
Don't go nuts over the finicky details in building a Faraday Cage. The main thing to take care of is insulating the device you are trying to protect from touching the Faraday Cage. Throw a blanket over the Generator and use small metal screen wire(not 1/4") to build the cage. Don't forget to cover the bottom just like any other side .Some folks get all crazy about teensie tiny gaps like where metal lids cover metal trashcans. They tape them up with Foil Tape and its not necessary. Do a little reading on EMP protection and you'll see that the tiny amount of leakage through cracks isn't powerful enough to harm anything. Whatever you do, don't have any wires running out from the Generator and Faraday Cage. They will act like antennas and bring that pulse right into the generator. I'll look in my computer files and see if I still have the in depth info on EMP's and maybe I'll post it.

Offline pkveazey

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 01:47:03 AM »
Oops... I have a couple of files on my computer about this but I can't seem to post them. Anyway, they're pretty large files. The QST website has a good article on Faraday Grounding. I personally don't ground Faraday cages because the ground wire acts like an antenna and just brings the pulse to the Cage.

Offline JoJo

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Re: His reasoning on Faraday cages.
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2018, 10:13:37 AM »
 Slowly going crazy. :-\ Now I have to move my generator away from my furnace but I don't have any other place to put it. OK here comes another big question. Will the metal skin of my furnace protect it from an EMP? All of the electronic components seem to be surrounded by metal.

@pkveazey. When you said 
Quote
small metal screen wire(not 1/4") to build the cage.
were you answering my question about aluminum window screening? 
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