Author Topic: EU - Cashless Society  (Read 1434 times)

Offline JohnyMac

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EU - Cashless Society
« on: May 06, 2015, 09:31:51 AM »
We have been dancing around this subject for about ten months now on Unchainedpreppers so I thought it deserved its own topic.

In short, the EU is moving towards a cashless society replaced with debt cards and other forms of electronic currency.

Using France as an example; you can not pay a bill over €70 using cash. You must use a check, credit card or debit card. Other countries are exploring this option too. Here is an example of a test in the UK I read in Zerohedge this morning written by George Washington:

Quote
...There have been test runs of this Rogoff-Buiter Economic Totalitarianism to see if the idea works. I reported on June 21, 2014 that Britain was doing a test run. A shopping street in Manchester banned cash as part of an experiment to see if Brits would accept a cashless society. London buses ended accepting cash payments from July 2014. Meanwhile, Currency Exchange dealers began offering debt cards instead of cash that they market as being safer to travel with. The Chorlton, South Manchester experiment was touted to test customers and business reaction to the idea for physical currency will disappear inside 20 years...


The reasons given are:

   > Reduced "bank-runs". Although I have not heard of any runs of late,
   > The ability to view customers purchasing habits, e.g. Maybe, the French Government would have been able to
       stop the Charlie Hebdo massacre before it happened by tracing firearm and ammo purchases,
   > Greatly reduce the underground labor market. No more picking up a few laborers outside your local Home
       Depot or Lowes anymore. Increased labor tax revenues to the Government, and
   > Reduced cash management expenses, e.g. printing, travel, tellers, etc.

Anyhow, lets keep an eye on this movement to see what happens in the EU as this may be coming across the Pond to a bank near you.   
 

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Offline JoJo

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 09:58:37 AM »
Why are they afraid of a bank run? Do they know something we don't?
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Offline APX808

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 10:17:40 AM »
You can also use it for people tracking, following your transactions they can know your behavior, commonly used routes and if they implement it for paying public transport they can know where you are.

Although I think it would be really helpful for plenty of reasons is a direct threat against anonymity.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 10:51:16 AM »
Jojo wrote:
Quote
Why are they afraid of a bank run? Do they know something we don't?

Probably  ;)

On another note: I do not think that cash will ever be useless primarily because you will need cash during an electricity/internet outage to survive as many retailers now do not take checks. As a matter of fact, how many people have traditional checking accounts anymore? Many folks pay bills by the internet now.

 
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Offline Kbop

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 11:30:39 AM »
 :tinfoil:
I wonder which is worse:

in a cashless society
Show content
- a BioMetric tracer used in cashless transactions.
.. causing the use of mules to do your purchase so it isn't traced to you.

or
in a cash using society
Show content
- RFiD in the cash/coin itself.
..  would it be possible to trace the cash through the system; from the reservoir, to the client to the mule to the transaction of interest to the bank where the memory is read, stored and wiped for use again.  This isn't too far fetched with our current tech.  - the algorithm for sorting the data has been around since before WWII.
current tech wouldn't work well using paper based bills, but polymer bills would encase the chip & wire just fine.  Coins would be simple to manufacture in quantity.
:dancingBanana: a thought - I wonder if microwaving your money would become common in an environment like that.

which would be worse?


gadget99

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2015, 01:56:02 PM »
Cash is still king here in the UK.

You go to buy a used car from someone and all they want to see is cash.


graynomad

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2015, 07:30:52 PM »
... As a matter of fact, how many people have traditional checking accounts anymore? Many folks pay bills by the internet now.

I haven't seen a cheque check for maybe 15 years, businesses tend to still use them I think, but individuals don't, not here in Oz anyway.

As for cashless society, if that can be pulled off (and is sounds like it already has been in France) it's one of the biggest threats to freedom I can imagine. I admit I don't use cash much these days but I'm inclined to do so more often, and I also want to get my $ out of the bank but if they can cash I would have to leave it there to be stolen by the bank wankers.

Offline Nemo

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 01:51:00 PM »
IMHO, this will soon be standard worldwide.

Nemo

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3068975/Greece-introduces-mandatory-surcharges-cashpoints-desperate-attempt-raise-money-stop-panicked-citizens-withdrawing-life-savings-country-s-beleaguered-banks.html


Quote
Greece introduces cashpoint tax in desperate bid to raise revenue and stop run on banks as country teeters on brink of bankruptcy

    Greek ministers expect to raise up to €180 million from the new surcharge
    They hope it will also deter savers pulling billions out of struggling banks
    Charge of €1 will apply to all ATM withdrawals and transfers over €1,000
    But those paying money in to their bank accounts will not be affected

By John Hall for MailOnline
5 May 2015 | Updated: 23:39 EST, 5 May 2015

Greece has revealed it is to introduce a surcharge for all cashpoint withdrawals and financial transactions in a desperate attempt to prevent citizens withdrawing their money from the country's beleaguered banks.

Ministers hope the controversial move could raise as much as €180 million, which the Athens government hopes will help the country avoid defaulting on debts owed to international creditors.

As the Greek economy teeters on the verge of bankruptcy, millions of panicking citizens have completely cleared their accounts - pulling more than €28 billion out of banks and pushing the total cash revenue held in the country's financial institutions to a 10-year low.

Scroll down for video
New charges at the ATM: As the Greek economy teeters on the verge of bankruptcy, millions of panicking citizens have completely cleared their accounts - pulling more than €28 billion out of banks

New charges at the ATM: As the Greek economy teeters on the verge of bankruptcy, millions of panicking citizens have completely cleared their accounts - pulling more than €28 billion out of banks

The controversial introduction of mandatory cashpoint charges still requires approval by the European Central Bank but is expected to amount to €1 for every €1,000 transaction.

While the measure is unlikely to impact on day-to-day withdrawals, Greece hopes it will deter citizens clearing out their bank accounts.

Clarifying that the charge will not apply to money paid in to a bank account, a senior finance ministry official told The Times: 'The surcharge is just one of a grab-bag of measures we are considering if things get tough.'

The official added that Greece is also considering a ceiling on bank transfers over €1 million in what could fire the starting pistol for capital controls if Greece does go bust over the coming months.

The news comes as the EU upgraded its growth outlook for the eurozone on the back of cheaper oil and a weak currency - but a sudden worsening of Greece cast a pall over the brightening situation.
Greek worries: The Athens stock market dropped over 4 per cent today with almost €1billion of debt payments due to be paid to the International Monetary Fund in two tranches over the next week

Greek worries: The Athens stock market dropped over 4 per cent today with almost €1billion of debt payments due to be paid to the International Monetary Fund in two tranches over the next week
Greece's Varoufakis says great progress achieved over debt issue

The improved Spring Forecast report said the eurozone would avoid much feared deflation as the 19-country area claws its way back to levels last seen before the global financial crisis.

Germany, Europe's economic powerhouse, is expected to grow by 1.9 per cent in 2015, above the EU average, helped by domestic demand and an improving labour market.

France's sluggish economy should expand by a much slower 1.1 percent but its budget deficit outlook has improved, making Paris less likely to face embarrassing penalties for breaking EU rules on public spending.

Even Italy and Portugal saw modest growth, while Ireland - which recently left an international bailout programme - had the fastest growing economy in the region.

Cyprus however is stuck in recession three years after its bailout and will not return to growth until next year, the Commission said.

But the gloomiest prognosis is for Greece, due to the drawn-out battle between the new leftist government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and the debt-hit nation's EU and IMF creditors.

With fears growing of a Greek exit form the euro, Greece's economy slumped severely in the first three months of the year.
Hard times: Greece is said to be considering a ceiling on bank transfers over €1 million in what could fire the starting pistol for capital controls if Greece does go bust over the coming months

Hard times: Greece is said to be considering a ceiling on bank transfers over €1 million in what could fire the starting pistol for capital controls if Greece does go bust over the coming months

The Commission accordingly slashed its overall 2015 growth outlook to 0.5 per cent, a huge tumble from its earlier estimate of 2.5 percent.

It predicted Greece would rebound strongly with 2.5 per cent growth in 2016.

'In light of the persistent uncertainty, a downward revision has been unavoidable' Moscovici told a news conference ahead of a meeting with Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis.

The 'meagre' 2015 growth estimate is also on condition that Greece reaches a deal with its creditors by June on its bailout, added the EU's Commissioner for the euro, Valdis Dombrovskis.

Greece's debt, already the highest in the eurozone, would meanwhile soar to 180.2 percent of annual economic output this year, before falling slightly to 173.5 percent in 2016.

The Commission predicted that consumer prices will edge up by a minimal 0.1 percent in 2015, but then gain momentum to 1.5 percent in 2016, after the eurozone came out of deflation last month.

Deflation can be dangerous, risking a spiral of ever weaker demand, slowing the economy and pushing up unemployment.
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brat

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 04:02:22 PM »
Quote
As a matter of fact, how many people have traditional checking accounts anymore?

I do. I still refuse ebills and make them send me a paper bill, I still buy "forever" stamps and use the post office. I still pay the IRS at the last possible moment (the post mark is what counts).

Offline JoJo

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 09:21:23 PM »
Quote
As a matter of fact, how many people have traditional checking accounts anymore?

I do. I still refuse ebills and make them send me a paper bill, I still buy "forever" stamps and use the post office. I still pay the IRS at the last possible moment (the post mark is what counts).

I pay all my bills by check. I have three credit cards which I pay off at the end of each month. The reason for the cards is for the 1% to 3% I get back when using them at certain places like gas.
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Offline Reaver

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 05:51:09 AM »
Nothing good will come of this.
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2015, 08:47:50 AM »
brat & Jojo, yeah I still use traditional checks to pay bills UNLESS I can't get out due to the snow.

RvR, I agree. It is worth keeping an eye on and posting on this thread.
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Offline DMCakhunter

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2015, 12:35:37 AM »
i think it is more about taxation on the transaction more than anything else. Lost revenue is a huge deal in Europe, well at least the thought of lost revenue is.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2015, 07:35:58 AM »
Bingo DM  :thumbsUp: I think you nailed it squarely on the head since most countries (If not all) in the EU has some form of a VAT tax not unlike what we see in Canada.

It would be interesting to read what our forum members who live in one of those countries do to avoid a VAT.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 07:14:29 AM by JohnyMac »
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gadget99

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2015, 03:42:46 PM »
Great point Dm.... I think you hit the nail on the head. The good old under table transaction has been a mainstay in British Society.

With the push for cashless transactions, it is starting to die out slowly.

Offline DMCakhunter

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Re: EU - Cashless Society
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2015, 01:46:22 PM »
I was thinking about this over the weekend. In the US, there are swipe fees that go along with every transaction made with plastic. You won't see them, but they are there to compensate either the company accepting the card payment or the company that issued the card. ATM's work the same, plus a fee you will see if you use an out of network ATM. It all comes down to revenue for someone.
Here in the US, we often see discounts for cash sales. Most often at gas stations or truck stops, but still, a discount for using cash. What a novelty.

From a purely financial perspective, on the other side of the coin at locations that do not offer discounts, we are better off paying for goods & services with a credit card that you get a rebate on. The exception to this is any state or government authority that charges an extra fee to use a credit card: hunting license, vehicle registration, taxes and so on.

Now, if you do not want your purchases to leave a paper trail, disregard the paragraph above.