14th Amendment - Default is not Possible

[JohnyMac]

As we approach October 17th and there will be no debt limit increase I would like to remind everyone that in the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 4, it would be illegal for the US Government to default on OUR debt.

As is written in the BOR's:

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

As reported earlier, our interest debt is ~ $25B a month while our monthly revenue is ~$85B -$250B depending on whether you strictly look at tax revenue or other revenue the Federal government takes in.

Please do not  get all tweaked over the word "default." It is illegal to default on our debt obligations.

Stay tuned as the rhetoric ratchets up on the GOP and DEM side.

On another note: I have a good friend who is a financial guy. He thinks that when we hit and surpass the Oct 17th date the market will take little notice. Probably no more than a 2-3% down turn, primarily due to investers  just taking profits under the guise of we hitting the debt limit.

The big down turn will happen when the Fed's interest rates go up.

Stay tuned....
 

[crudos]

It is still piss-poor governing to have a minority group in the House holding sway on the future of this nation. Like it or not, the President has won two terms on the exact issues we are confronted with. The GOP has lost two elections over the same issues. Acting like children who don't get their way is a terrible way to run a nation. Sayin'......

[Grudgie]

One thing I have wondered, if the Fed raises the interest rates does that increase the interest of all bonds previously issued or just the ones we will issue in the future?

Either way, if the debt ceiling isn't raised it's game over. I'd like to hear more of your friend's reasoning. The last I checked we had an annual income of 1.8 trillion and an annual spending of 3.2. If we hit the debt ceeling, that is a massive cut out of the government. That would at least send us into depression unless we print everything we spend. Either way it's game over.

[Grudgie]

If we raise the debt ceeling it will at least prolong judgement day and give me ore time to prep.

[JohnyMac]

Grudgie wrote, "The last I checked we had an annual income of 1.8 trillion and an annual spending of 3.2. If we hit the debt ceeling, that is a massive cut out of the government."

BINGO Grudgie!  And then you wrote "If we raise the debt ceeling it will [just kick the can down the street] at least prolong judgement day and give me ore time to prep.

The longer you wait to pull the rotten apples out of the bin, more apples will have to be removed from the bin later on - Then you will have NO apples left.

Crudos you are wrong. The GOP or might I say conservatives, picked up more seats in local and state governments then the Dems did in 2012. Remember, politics are local. The national press forgets that point. 

Google 2010 governors then 2012 governors. Do the same for State Congresses to prove my point.

Now lets take Ohhh, Wisconsin as an example. The state will show a $759 Million dollar SURPLUS for 2013 -15 budget Vs. the 3 Billion dollar deficit when a conservative governor and legislature was voted in.   
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/wisconsin-legislature-expected-to-act-quickly-on-tax-break-b99119868z1-227718991.html
http://newmediajournal.us/indx.php/item/2450

Maybe we can do the same thing federal wise. 

[crudos]

JM, Couple of things.... The GOP picked up more seats because short of Jesus H. Christ himself returning, was going to be red regardless of what the Dems had in those elections. The real test will be in 2014.

On Wisconsin, before you canonize Scotty, get all the facts on his time as governor of my state....

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2012/jan/29/scott-walker/gov-scott-walker-says-he-eliminated-wisconsins-36-/

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2013/aug/19/scott-walker/scott-walker-says-best-two-year-job-growth-came-du/

Just more spin, instead of solid governing by the Walker administration. Frankly, the guy is an idiot, who without massive funding from the Koch Brothers would be unemployed, or in some high-end lobby position courtesy of the old boy network.

So just a couple of cents as I am apt to do. 

[Kentactic]

According to this guy we won't default we just cant spend even more then we already are. I also agree I see nothing wrong with republicans using their power to its full potential.

[sledge]

It is still piss-poor governing to have a minority group in the House holding sway on the future of this nation. Like it or not, the President has won two terms on the exact issues we are confronted with. The GOP has lost two elections over the same issues. Acting like children who don't get their way is a terrible way to run a nation. Sayin'......

Actually, the future of the nation has been "swayed" for quite some time.  It's about time someone or group in government grew enough balls to say enough of this shit and be willing to back it up with votes putting their butts on the line instead of just lip service.

[crudos]

Actually, the future of the nation has been "swayed" for quite some time.  It's about time someone or group in government grew enough balls to say enough of this shit and be willing to back it up with votes putting their butts on the line instead of just lip service.

Ask John McCain and Mitt Romney about the swaying of the nation. I am very hard on the GOP, they have literally failed the nation, I expect that from Democratic Party on a regular basis. But used to hold the GOP to a higher standard, but not anymore. And don't get me started on the Tea Party, Inc., who mistake having balls as a replacement for having brains, and played along in utter silence for eight years under Bush II as the nation was wrecked.

[sledge]

Ask John McCain and Mitt Romney about the swaying of the nation. I am very hard on the GOP, they have literally failed the nation, I expect that from Democratic Party on a regular basis. But used to hold the GOP to a higher standard, but not anymore. And don't get me started on the Tea Party, Inc., who mistake having balls as a replacement for having brains, and played along in utter silence for eight years under Bush II as the nation was wrecked.

I can't disagree with any of that.  Although, I see a broader view in addition to it.  Why do you think the nation started being wrecked under Bush (Either one for that matter.)  Democrats and Republican political machines have caused damage.  You could argue which one caused the most with their policies, but it would probably come out equal. 

But all of the blame for what has happened to our once free and prosperous republic can't be laid on them.  We, the citizens allowed it to happen by not paying attention and reacting.  By showing interest only in our own greed and what special programs would do for us.  By believing the bullshit that came out of politicians mouths instead of looking at facts.  The founders warned us this would occur if the citizens didn't remain vigilant in watching what government was doing.  They were right.

So to my way of thinking, screaming at the GOP or Democrats is misplacing blame.  We should be screaming and shaking a fist at the image in our own mirrors.

Edit:  So this brings up a question.  If a person, or group of people, or nation gets the result that their actions or inactions deserve, is it really unfair?  And do they really have a right to complain?

 

[Kentactic]

"Edit:  So this brings up a question.  If a person, or group of people, or nation gets the result that their actions or inactions deserve, is it really unfair?  And do they really have a right to complain?"



Hard to say. If a sneaky robber manages to rob me blind despite my alertness am I at fault? The politicians didn't come out and say they were going to rob us. They were sneaky. Youd have to argue how engaged the population needs to be as a standard and if they weren't its their fault.

[rah45]

"Edit:  So this brings up a question.  If a person, or group of people, or nation gets the result that their actions or inactions deserve, is it really unfair?  And do they really have a right to complain?"



Hard to say. If a sneaky robber manages to rob me blind despite my alertness am I at fault? The politicians didn't come out and say they were going to rob us. They were sneaky. Youd have to argue how engaged the population needs to be as a standard and if they weren't its their fault.

You also have to consider that my generation had inherited 90% of this mess by the time we were voting age. I've been voting for less than a decade. Do I have a right to complain that my parents' and grandparents' generations completely screwed me and my children over? Yeah, I think so. I'll work with you to dismantle this horrible system and rebuild the republic, but yeah I do get bitter about the responsibilities of those generations being cast to the wayside.

[Kentactic]

"Edit:  So this brings up a question.  If a person, or group of people, or nation gets the result that their actions or inactions deserve, is it really unfair?  And do they really have a right to complain?"



Hard to say. If a sneaky robber manages to rob me blind despite my alertness am I at fault? The politicians didn't come out and say they were going to rob us. They were sneaky. Youd have to argue how engaged the population needs to be as a standard and if they weren't its their fault.

You also have to consider that my generation had inherited 90% of this mess by the time we were voting age. I've been voting for less than a decade. Do I have a right to complain that my parents' and grandparents' generations completely screwed me and my children over? Yeah, I think so. I'll work with you to dismantle this horrible system and rebuild the republic, but yeah I do get bitter about the responsibilities of those generations being cast to the wayside.

I try not to point fingers but ya past generations (45 and older) totally dropped the ball. Maybe I would have too if I was with them. Who knows.

[Kentactic]

Well the GOP made a deal... pussies... well be back at it in January.

[thatGuy]

Well the GOP made a deal... pussies... well be back at it in January.

I'll second that.

[Currahee]

Well the GOP made a deal... pussies... well be back at it in January.

I'll second that.

Totally sold us out- but I'm used to that.

[Alex1992]

You know I'm waiting for somebody to say Obama you have reached your credit card limit. Putting jokes aside this has been nothing but a nightmare and neither side is compromising and I'm afraid that things could get worse and America's future unknown.

[Currahee]

You know I'm waiting for somebody to say Obama you have reached your credit card limit. Putting jokes aside this has been nothing but a nightmare and neither side is compromising and I'm afraid that things could get worse and America's future unknown.

Fat chance, he won't have reached his credit limit until your 401K has been used to finance Obama phones and food stamps.

[Well-Prepared Witch]

I think it's disingenuous to get upset over the debt ceiling, and not get upset over the spending bills that were already authorized. Remember that the debt that our country is doing is because our Congress, and all its glory, has already authorized this spending and now we're trying to find ways to pay our bills. It would be like telling Macy's that you ran up a bill on their store card, but, oh gee, you can't pay for it without borrowing money so you're not going to pay it.

I think most of us would agree that our government needs to curtail spending. Living within our means is a good thing. It's just that we cannot agree on what the right spending is. I think social safety nets are incredibly important, and that we spend way too much on defense and corporate subsidies. Others feel funding military action overseas is critical, that large corporations and the wealthy should be exempt from taxes and that people who need help are lazy. And it doesn't help that our elected officials love their pork barrel, which I'm sure is not a small portion of our spending.

I think we would be far better served if we started pressuring our elected representatives to create a budget that pays off our debts and keeps us within our spending limits. Instead, we have practically unlimited spending and then this brinksmanship over whether we're going to pay the bills.

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[JohnyMac]

I agree 100% Wellie!

Wellie wrote:
I think we would be far better served if we started pressuring our elected representatives to create a budget that pays off our debts and keeps us within our spending limits. Instead, we have practically unlimited spending and then this brinksmanship over whether we're going to pay the bills.

Without saying something that is cliche we need to vote the bastards out!

I would like to see:
> A balanced budget amendment added to the BOR's (Except in time of declared war)
> Term limits for members of Congress
    2, 6 year terms for the Senate
    4, 2 year terms for the House
> More revenue brought in by leasing Federal land for oil, gas and coal exploration.

I am tired of my Representatives making their stint in DC a career. They assure their career by voting in Christmas presents to their constituents and because of this our debt is $18T.

Every time they raise that debt ceiling we will fall farther and hit harder when the SHTF!
   

[sledge]

I think it's disingenuous to get upset over the debt ceiling, and not get upset over the spending bills that were already authorized. Remember that the debt that our country is doing is because our Congress, and all its glory, has already authorized this spending and now we're trying to find ways to pay our bills. It would be like telling Macy's that you ran up a bill on their store card, but, oh gee, you can't pay for it without borrowing money so you're not going to pay it.

I think most of us would agree that our government needs to curtail spending. Living within our means is a good thing. It's just that we cannot agree on what the right spending is. I think social safety nets are incredibly important, and that we spend way too much on defense and corporate subsidies. Others feel funding military action overseas is critical, that large corporations and the wealthy should be exempt from taxes and that people who need help are lazy. And it doesn't help that our elected officials love their pork barrel, which I'm sure is not a small portion of our spending.

I think we would be far better served if we started pressuring our elected representatives to create a budget that pays off our debts and keeps us within our spending limits. Instead, we have practically unlimited spending and then this brinksmanship over whether we're going to pay the bills.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

This.  Only at this point I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.  It's the "take away from them but leave my stuff alone" mentality.  No one is willing to give up anything, so in the end we will all have nothing because we can't continue to pay for it all without continuously raising the debt limit. 

I wish that I knew exactly how high the debt limit would go before the whole house of cards falls in.   

[JohnyMac]

IMO the National Debt is the worlds way to topple the USofA. The sad thing is we are compliant in "their" bidding.

[crudos]

I wish that I knew exactly how high the debt limit would go before the whole house of cards falls in.   

The whole idea of a debt limit is overblown. It is part of how government works (or doesn't work, depending on the situation), and it changes over time. Prices only seem to go up, and rarely ever go down, so we must adjust accordingly to keep society functioning. I don't think there is a limit that once past, X will occur, but certainly a host of other factors that could make it all come crashing down someday.

[sledge]

I wish that I knew exactly how high the debt limit would go before the whole house of cards falls in.   

The whole idea of a debt limit is overblown. It is part of how government works (or doesn't work, depending on the situation), and it changes over time. Prices only seem to go up, and rarely ever go down, so we must adjust accordingly to keep society functioning. I don't think there is a limit that once past, X will occur, but certainly a host of other factors that could make it all come crashing down someday.

So crudos you are saying that the debt limit won't affect quality of life of the average citizen?  So when it is raised to 21 trillion, 35 trillion, 50 trillion, it won't have an effect?  I think at the very least it would raise taxes due to the gov having to pay additional interest.  The way they like to print money, maybe they should just print it up and pay the debt off. 

That's kind of where we're going isn't it.  To pay the interest that congress is headed for, without enough funds coming in to pay the bill, they'll just print up whatever they need for the additional payment anyway and call it a loan from the Fed Reserve.   Which will increase the debt by that much more.

IDK.  I see some problems with this strategy.   

[crudos]

Sledge, don't get me wrong, it is far from ideal, but that is the state of government, there is no simple way to fix it. Raising corporate taxes, legalizing drugs like marijuana/hemp to get tax dollars from that, etc........ there are many strategies that We The People can do to start to get out of this mess.