Author Topic: Costa ICET Training- Review  (Read 2131 times)

Offline CJS06

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Costa ICET Training- Review
« on: August 18, 2014, 01:21:54 PM »
It has been a couple of weeks since getting back from Wyoming and I promised JohnnyMac that I would do a review.

ICET is Intermediate Carbine Elements Theory.  This was originally called Heavy Carbine a developed for the .308 Carbine.  It has morphed a bit with about 1/2 of the class running Heavies and the remainder running 5.56.  The class is designed for addressing targets between 5 and 500 yards.  It is all about getting good hits at various unknown distance as quickly as possible.  Although marksmanship is a key element of the course it is not about sitting down taking all the time you want and trying to punch a bullet through the same hole over and over again.  It is about getting good hits that are effective as quickly as possible on targets at various ranges. Very little of this course took place on a square range.  Much of it involved running up and down ridges, identifying targets and  addressing them appropriately.

We started with zeroing, and understanding the optic that you are using. Some are moa, moa/mil, or mil/mil.  These all require different math that you need to understand when getting good hits at a distance.  We had some fun with the dollar shoot (closest to Washington's nose). We also also made sure irons were zeroed, and proper application of back up sights. Some used red dots as secondary optics some had 45deg irons etc.  Most of the day was working on marksmanship and making sure that everyones equipment was set up properly and changing/ adjusting where necessary.

On the second day we worked on developing dope for round we were shooting and applying this to targets at various ranges. We worked in pairs quite a bit with spotter/shooter pairs. As pairs we worked on target ID, ranging and working as a team to get good hits as fast a possible. Some shooting positions had  steel at various ranges from 2-500yds while others would have targets as close as 25, 100 yds and another at 300.

The final day was putting this all together in the form of a o-course type of event. In pairs we were driven out by ATV and dropped off. From there we ran a course that consisted of 12 different shooting positions that each had between 3 and 6 targets placed at unknown distances, spread across the different ridge lines and ravines of the Star River Valley. At each station each person had to put 2 rounds on each steel. One stage even including a plate rack that required handgun before transition out to longer range targets.

Costa's Premeir Wyoming training is a great opportunity if you can get the opportunity. In general it is a great group of guys in a small class(16) that get to train in an open environment that isnt available in many areas. I find that in these courses Chris Costa takes on much more of the role of "coach" than "teacher".  Dont get me wrong I learned a metric ton, but some of the biggest things I learned were incremental .....if that make sense I am not sure. It was also great to spend 4 days with the same group, not just at the class but also at the lodge, etc.  It really helps to bring together a team atmosphere where everyone is learning from each other...pushing each other.

I hope some of you find this helpful. Please feel free to send me a message if there is something more specific I can answer for you.  BTW some of the other classes I have taken (not just Costa, though I have enjoyed those more than many others) besides the std Handgun and Carbine 1&2 are Restricted Visibility (low/no light), Vehicle, Team Building, Performance Pistol Carbine. I have been able to take something from each and every class I have had the pleasure of taking part in.


Burt Gummer

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 01:46:28 PM »
Thanks CJS06
That sounds like just the training I aught to go to...

did anyone run 7.62 there? and what were the setups on their rifle?
did it affect the way the ran the course compared to the AR crowd?

Offline CJS06

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 02:20:51 PM »
Burt

I ran a 7.62 at this class.  I ran a LMT MWS with a Leupold MK6 1-6x, KAC 45deg offset sights and to mitigate weight I shot off my pack rather than lug around the bipod. A number of other 7.62s were there as well such as a KAC SR25, LWRC Reaper, and a SCAR 17. They were run with varios Optics from Leupold, Vortex, Nightforce and US Optics.  About 1/2 ran 45deg RDS sights and the rest ran irons.

The biggest difference was at the longer range compared to the 5.56.  As the winds came up the 5.56s were effected more and became more inconsistent.  That and the fact that carrying around the 7.62 at 7500ft -8500ft of elevation was definitely harder on the boys with the heavies (definitely on me :-) ).  I would saw that the 7.62 crowd was a little bit more conservative with ammo usage. Partly because for us it was almost double the $$$  of 5.56 and partly because it was harder to carry as much for a complete course of fire.  I carried 4 mags and 1 in the rifle that totals 95 rds. The guys carrying 5.56 were able to carry at least 50 rds more without and were about at the same weight for ammo.

Chris

 

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 08:43:04 PM »
Great AAR CJS06! A few questions to help others to decide if they would like to try out Costa's class.

1) Any issues with transport of firearms? I would think not as you were flying out of T.F.Green and landing
    in Wyoming. The only Airport issues I had was in BWI, OAK and LGA.
2) Was ammo shipped to training site or did you lug it along?
3) Approximate cost for the course.
4) If you were to do the course again: What would you bring you didn't bring or not bring again?
5) Lodging.

Thanks for taking the time to write the AAR  :thumbsUp:
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 09:55:16 PM »
JohnnyMac thanks.

I'll try to answer some of the questions.....as they apply to the Costa Class in Wyoming and other classes I have been to where applicable.

1.) Flying with firearms is less of a problem then most people make it out to be. When flying to Wyoming I flew from Boston (yes the Communist Republic of Mass). I fly from Boston often as it is generally cheaper flights anywhere out West. My rule of thumb is to give myself 20 extra minutes for checking my guns. That said I have been known to get testy about airline snafus on connecting flights. I have also had annoying delays at LAX, and BWI. I travel with a Pelican Case that holds 2 Carbines and my Handgun.  I find the key is to be respectful even when the counter employee asks stupid questions and be as low key as possible. Other than the shape of my case you cant tell what I am carrying. I dont have gun stickers all over my case or my stuff, just a flag and my ID.

2.) I ship my ammo to most classes I fly to. In this case I ordered it from Steven at Freedom Ammunition and he shipped it direct to the class for me. Many classes have suppliers lined up so you can buy ammo at the class but pricing is generally a good bit higher than what I am willing to pay. Any course I have been to (where I had to fly) has had secure receiving arranged. Some guys I know even ship there guns rather than flying with them. I fly with mine and have never had an issue, but if you are concerned this is an option.

3.) Total cost of the course varies. The premier courses are $625 for 3 days, airfare was about $375, ammo was about $650-$700, Lodging was $325.  Most courses range from $500-$750 depending on length and instructor, airfare is what it is......I do prefer if I can drive to class as it is a huge savings. Lodging is the most variable. In Wyoming Costa had an arrangement with Cabin Creek Inn for very discounted lodging that included meals, this is similar to classes I have taken at Altair in Florida. Not many classes have this and I have been known to stay in some truly less than 1 star type establishments to save a buck. Ammo cost will vary on the class.  Next week I am in Maine at a Vehicle class that requires 800rds each of carbine and handgun. On the other end of the spectrum is Team Building that I will be attending again in December at Altair.  There we need 3000rds of carbine and 1000rds of handgun.  Ammo is generally one of the most cost prohibitive factors for many.

4.) I have my travel kit fairly worked out at this point. For the ICET class I just did I brought a 5.56 as a backup system to my LMT. This required me to ship enough ammo to do the course in 5.56 if I needed to. If I were to do it again I would not bring the 5.56 as a backup. It was a bonch of extra weight and required shipping all of the 5.56 home. I keep my guns up and am confident in their reliability, really all I would bring is my tools and spares kit (that I brought as well).  For a real high round count class I definitely believe in a spare rifle but for lower count classes (1500 rds or less for 3 days) I wouldn't bring it.

5.) Lodging at the Costa Wyoming classes is a package deal that unfortunately is not always available. Other places like Weaponcraft in Maine have made arrangements for their students with local establishments.  Altair in Florida is self contained with housing on site at the range.  Any time that you can spend more time together as a group I find really raises the level of the class. I have taken classes where at the end of the day everyone goes there own way until the next morning. I still enjoy the class but dont find them as rewarding. I wish this was a more comprehensive answer but lodging is one of the biggest variables in different classes.

I hope these are helpful
Chris
 

Burt Gummer

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 03:22:38 AM »
Burt

I ran a 7.62 at this class.  I ran a LMT MWS with a Leupold MK6 1-6x, KAC 45deg offset sights and to mitigate weight I shot off my pack rather than lug around the bipod. A number of other 7.62s were there as well such as a KAC SR25, LWRC Reaper, and a SCAR 17. They were run with varios Optics from Leupold, Vortex, Nightforce and US Optics.  About 1/2 ran 45deg RDS sights and the rest ran irons.

The biggest difference was at the longer range compared to the 5.56.  As the winds came up the 5.56s were effected more and became more inconsistent.  That and the fact that carrying around the 7.62 at 7500ft -8500ft of elevation was definitely harder on the boys with the heavies (definitely on me :-) ).  I would saw that the 7.62 crowd was a little bit more conservative with ammo usage. Partly because for us it was almost double the $$$  of 5.56 and partly because it was harder to carry as much for a complete course of fire.  I carried 4 mags and 1 in the rifle that totals 95 rds. The guys carrying 5.56 were able to carry at least 50 rds more without and were about at the same weight for ammo.

Chris
I've got so many questions but i'll try and contain myself.
- :o that's a 2.2K piece of glass on that rifle, more specifically was the FFP reticle worth the extra cost?
- 45* offset irons do they work for you? Compared to red dot.
- was 1-6 enough? given that you had your iron sight option for close engagement.

Offline CJS06

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »
Burt

I ran a 7.62 at this class.  I ran a LMT MWS with a Leupold MK6 1-6x, KAC 45deg offset sights and to mitigate weight I shot off my pack rather than lug around the bipod. A number of other 7.62s were there as well such as a KAC SR25, LWRC Reaper, and a SCAR 17. They were run with varios Optics from Leupold, Vortex, Nightforce and US Optics.  About 1/2 ran 45deg RDS sights and the rest ran irons.

The biggest difference was at the longer range compared to the 5.56.  As the winds came up the 5.56s were effected more and became more inconsistent.  That and the fact that carrying around the 7.62 at 7500ft -8500ft of elevation was definitely harder on the boys with the heavies (definitely on me :-) ).  I would saw that the 7.62 crowd was a little bit more conservative with ammo usage. Partly because for us it was almost double the $$$  of 5.56 and partly because it was harder to carry as much for a complete course of fire.  I carried 4 mags and 1 in the rifle that totals 95 rds. The guys carrying 5.56 were able to carry at least 50 rds more without and were about at the same weight for ammo.

Chris
I've got so many questions but i'll try and contain myself.
- :o that's a 2.2K piece of glass on that rifle, more specifically was the FFP reticle worth the extra cost?
- 45* offset irons do they work for you? Compared to red dot.
- was 1-6 enough? given that you had your iron sight option for close engagement.

-The MK6 is not cheap particularly when you add a good mount. I was lucky enough to get a great deal from a friend for mine....though it still really hurt in the wallet. My Mk6 has the CMR reticle that I really really like. It seems busy, but with little adjustment it is very intuitive, and very helpful for multiple targets at various distance.  I would have to say that I find it worth it.

- I do really like the 45deg irons. I also like red dots but there is a definite cost difference to be considered. For me it was worth the $$$ into the primary glass and the irons. At some point I may take one of the RMRs that is on one of the handguns that I never use and put it on a 45 and run that for a while.

- Out to 500 +/- yads the 1-6 was great.  Even at short ranges I never reduced below 2.5x  and most of this course it sat at 6x.  If I was running a pure precision course I would definitely use more magnification but for this kind of course it was ideal. My go to rifle is a Noveske set up with an EOTech EXPS3 that I will generally run out to 300 with no magnification and can still get me hits regularly.  As I get older and my eyesight is getting more "challenging" I may start to run a variable in closer and in that case I think a little more power in this type of class would be good......but not crazy amounts. 2 guys ran significantly higher power glass (10x and 16x) and had real problems with the speed they were able to acquire the targets and engage them in. Even with more power because of the reduced field of view they were not great as spotters....just took too long finding the targets.

Burt Gummer

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Re: Costa ICET Training- Review
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 01:22:10 AM »
2 guys ran significantly higher power glass (10x and 16x) and had real problems with the speed they were able to acquire the targets and engage them in. Even with more power because of the reduced field of view they were not great as spotters....just took too long finding the targets.
I never considered that becoming an issue...  :zombie:
I would have imagined your 2nd sights being your guide on target then rotating for magnification