B/W brain bucket

[Treaded]

I just got back from taking the son and his family out for dinner and on the way back we stopped at his favorite surplus store.  On a back shelf behind the counter they had a rattlecaned helmet tagged $50.  Kind of curious and not really expecting the guy to bite I offered $25 and he took it saying no one had bought it because nobody uses it (it's a GI town).  Looking at this thing it's got to be at least a large and has a suspension system that was described by my wife as looking like something that was cobbled together out of sex toys.  I haven't decided what to do with it yet but I may decide to throw a BLSS in it and camo it for giggles.  It's actually not a bad fitting bucket and seems at least comparable to the PASGT in construction but the suspension is lacking.  I'm going to do some digging later on tonight and see if I can find the specs for it.     

[RS762]

and has a suspension system that was described by my wife as looking like something that was cobbled together out of sex toys.

rofl thats hilarious.
as a congratulatory measure here's the gayest "post of the day" pic i could find.

[NOLA556]

that's exactly how I got my old BOB. it was marked around $99 (retail for around $300+)... I didn't make an offer, just asked if he could come down on the price, and he voluntarily dropped to $60 right off the bat. from there I haggled down to $45. (he openly told me that it had been sitting on the shelf for a couple years)

[Treaded]

Daughter-in-law did some googling and translating and it seems these are rated frag only.  It's been more than a few years since I've seen a PASGT but IIRC they were a bit thicker than this and they weren't rated above frag (but I have seen them catch a bullet).  So it's good for an interesting conversation piece but I wouldn't trust my skull to it.

[EJR914]

Looking at this thing it's got to be at least a large and has a suspension system that was described by my wife as looking like something that was cobbled together out of sex toys. 

So your wife knows what sex toys look like?  Can you say HAWT!  LOL  sorry couldn't resist.  My wife has no idea what sex toys look like.  She's too busy with the real thing to care. 

[JohnyMac]

To funny EJR  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

On another note for us who haven't served in the military Treaded, I think you are talking about a non kevlar helmet...Right?

Maybe post a pic if you could.

[thatGuy]

I'm torn over the topic of helmets. We regularly have a 'county gunshow' where you get guys who don't take their tables to the big city shows because there are too many state cops asking too many questions and these boys got piles of armor. Literally piles. This one fellow had a pallet of what I would have swore were brand new interceptor rigs.

Having worked 15 years in construction I will tell you that having a little something between you and your environment makes a huge difference and I would have spent a lot more time in the ICU if it hadn't have been for hardhats and safety glasses. On the otherside of that coin guys do dumb shit when they are wearing enough personall protective equipment. I watched a guy cut his palm to the bone "proving" that his Kevlar glove would stop the blade.

But we have another issue to deal with here.. Mobility. Sure there is a time and a place but Treaded how do you feel about the current 'always armored' model in a WROL/Grid Down scenario?

[EJR914]

I think there could possibly be certain "missions" in SHTF, WROL, where SPEED would be king, and there may not be as bit of a need for armor that could slow you down.  Also, in a partial situation, armor may be too noticable, and get you killed anyway, and you have to go, looking like a normal civvy.

Remember, guerrillas have to BLEND in with the environment, not stick out like a sore thumb .

I believe there is a time and a place for armor and then no armor.  Just like there is a time and a place for OC and for CC. 

Both have their advantages and disadvantage.  Armor can slow you down, and make you stick out like a sore thumb, yet it can also save your life when SHTF.  It all depends on the situation and the mission.  With that said, train with your armor on, because it will make you faster, on those missions when you don't have your armor on. 

[Treaded]

The B/W (Bundeswehr) helmet I'm talking about is the one you see on all the websites being sold as a "current issue" German Helmet.  It's a kevlar composite with a funky suspension system.  Normally called an 826 helmet and used by a lot of euro countries (my DiL is a badass researcher of all things survival and zombie related).  Here's a link: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cascoscoleccion.com%2Falemania%2Fal826.htm     

EJ hit a lot of it on the head.  There's a time and place for body armor.  I keep a current IIIA vest and one of my old RBRs hanging with my shotty next to the bed for dealing with bumps in the night.  Once SHTF my grab and go to deal with problems locally includes a PC and bucket.  If I have to shag the hell outta here then who wears what is denedent on what we're used to - but possibly no helmets - it's an on the spot call dependent on what I perceive the threat as.  As a "G"?  See below.

As far as mobility I'll throw this out there.  I've trained my entire adult life (from 17 years old) to conduct fairly strenuous activity with some kind of load either worn or carried.  Consequently once I hit my pace unless there's a significant (meaning over 30 lbs.) increase in my load then my movement time isn't going to increase significantly. In my case that's almost irrelevant.  Why?  Even fully loaded I'm still faster than the slowest member of my family (my wife who to her credit at almost fifty years old can still run two miles in 17 minutes).   

Guerrilla?   If you have some out of shape lardass carrying twenty extra pounds of fat in your little band of "Gs" then you can probably get away with it.  Slowest guy on the block?  leave it behind or you get left behind. Let me regale with you a little story that happened last summer.  I was invited through a cousin who was a member of band of merry fellows that call themselves "militia" to go up to the Ozarks and serve as a weekend OC of sorts for them to run through some of the the stuff in Larsens book.  I almost killed those guys. It was in the high 90s and we moved back and forth over their little 100 acre spread constantly in full gear taking a break only when they ran out of water (which none of them had enough of). They had trained in their gear (it was apparent) but not for extended periods.  I'm talking 18 hours not four for five or even eight.  If you aren't training and conditioning in your full gear to do things like run at least a couple of miles, crawl through brush for a couple of hundred yards, rappel a 50 foot cliff, cross a swift stream, drag or carry your buddy, infiltrate a wire obstacle, etc. then the extra weight of a bucket or PC isn't going to be relevant.  You won't be able to perform because you lack the stamina.  Make no mistake I have no illusions that I've slowed down over the years - which is precisely why I ain't going out and playing Guerrilla.           

EJ - I'd much rather HH6 been playing with some toys vs. Jodie when I was gone.  Think about that.  And then think about how long you might have been gone for.  Touche'

[special-k]

Here's something I read concerning the helmets we saw Delta force wearing in the movie "Black Hawk Down.":

...In the book Mark Bowden says they wore the lighter-weight Pro-tec bicycle helmets because "their specialized work called for them to move fast in and out of small places, so their primary concern was bumping their head, not taking a bullet or shrapnel".
Nowadays with the smaller, lighter Kevlar ACH (advanced combat helmet) however, both fields are covered.

For anyone interested in rocking out old-school delta-force style:  http://pro-tec.net/helmets.php#all

[cornkiller1]

Body Armor might be a life saving measure that will only save your life in a WROL situation.

As a Combat Medic I can not do a thing for anybody shot in the abdomen region or chest. I can bandage you up but you will most likely die if you can't find your way to anybody less then a surgeon.  Weigh your options.  Being shot now isn't that bad because of the availability of higher medical personnel.

To cover as much of your core with body armor is ideal with only your extremities exposed because I might be able to stitch an artery and suture a wound in your arm but I wouldn't have an idea of what to do if you have a bullet in your liver, or spleen or stomach.

You can hold 10 pints of blood in your abdomen and you only have 6 pints of blood. Unless you have a surgeon, protect your center mass.

Speed is key? what are you racing someone? Unless you can out run a bullet i'd rather have the body armor.

[EJR914]

EJ - I'd much rather HH6 been playing with some toys vs. Jodie when I was gone.  Think about that.  And then think about how long you might have been gone for.  Touche'

I think that's awesome man.  MY wife just doesn't like playing with toys, which sucks.  She prefers the real things, so if she can't stand it when I'm away, guess they'll be a lot of Jodie around, its alright, though, I expected it.  I already know my wife is a whore.  No surprises there. 

[sledge]

Looking at this thing it's got to be at least a large and has a suspension system that was described by my wife as looking like something that was cobbled together out of sex toys. 

So your wife knows what sex toys look like?  Can you say HAWT!  LOL  sorry couldn't resist.  My wife has no idea what sex toys look like.  She's too busy with the real thing to care.

That was mean.  I'll just point out for those of limited experience that although all women have basically the same equipment, each woman's equipment is a little different in it's proper operation.  Just because you've tinkered with one doesn't mean you know how to operate another without some study.  That said, I'm looking for a new one to tinker with right now.

[rah45]

A little off topic, guys...   

[Treaded]

Body Armor might be a life saving measure that will only save your life in a WROL situation.
As a Combat Medic I can not do a thing for anybody shot in the abdomen region or chest. I can bandage you up but you will most likely die if you can't find your way to anybody less then a surgeon.  Weigh your options.  Being shot now isn't that bad because of the availability of higher medical personnel.
To cover as much of your core with body armor is ideal with only your extremities exposed because I might be able to stitch an artery and suture a wound in your arm but I wouldn't have an idea of what to do if you have a bullet in your liver, or spleen or stomach.
You can hold 10 pints of blood in your abdomen and you only have 6 pints of blood. Unless you have a surgeon, protect your center mass.
Speed is key? what are you racing someone? Unless you can out run a bullet i'd rather have the body armor.

CK glad you posted here.  Have you seen the new abdominal TQ and if so what's your opinion of it?

[cornkiller1]

Body Armor might be a life saving measure that will only save your life in a WROL situation.
As a Combat Medic I can not do a thing for anybody shot in the abdomen region or chest. I can bandage you up but you will most likely die if you can't find your way to anybody less then a surgeon.  Weigh your options.  Being shot now isn't that bad because of the availability of higher medical personnel.
To cover as much of your core with body armor is ideal with only your extremities exposed because I might be able to stitch an artery and suture a wound in your arm but I wouldn't have an idea of what to do if you have a bullet in your liver, or spleen or stomach.
You can hold 10 pints of blood in your abdomen and you only have 6 pints of blood. Unless you have a surgeon, protect your center mass.
Speed is key? what are you racing someone? Unless you can out run a bullet i'd rather have the body armor.

CK glad you posted here.  Have you seen the new abdominal TQ and if so what's your opinion of it?

No, I haven't seen the new abdominal TQ or even heard of one. I might be completely missing the concept but i'm under the impression from my training that abdominal hemorrhage is one that can't be controlled by pressure. You going to cut off the Aorta? You talking about a pelvis splint? I did a google search and found nothing. yanking my chain?

[cornkiller1]

ok I found it.. interesting.. Let me research it a bit..

[thatGuy]

Speed is key? what are you racing someone? Unless you can out run a bullet i'd rather have the body armor.

Hit and run brother, hit and run.

[EJR914]

Agreed, hit and RUN is going to be the way to go, IMHO.  When I mean HIT, I mean to kill as well.  Not just lazily shoot some shots in a direction and then run like little pansies so that the support doesn't show up and mess you up.

[Treaded]

Hit and run is a target specific tactic.  It works fine against small elements with little support but once you get going against organized forces that support may very well be a Block III Apache, WZ10, or Z-19 pulling data links from dismounts and drones already in orbit overhead - from orbit to engagement in under 30 seconds.  One flight can cover a battlespace of tens of square miles easily.  A Predator or VMA-10 with synthetic aperture radar to find you if you are moving from thousands of feet up in hundreds of square miles. Even the lowly block II Raven can fix you if you're putting out an IR signature.  Is it doable?  yeah.  But you better have your shit together.   

[cornkiller1]

Okay from researching the abdominal TQ, I've found that it is mostly used for inguinal bleeds (around your crotch, where your legs meet your abdomen.) A TQ is most effective 2-3 inches above the wound. This TQ cuts off complete blood flow to your whole lower half. Its not used for abdominal bleeds but would stop severe life threatening hemorrhage to the lower half of your body but over all unless you get to a surgeon your fucked. You can't loosen a TQ after its been applied for 6 hours but you can have one applied up to 2 hours with no damage to tissue.

Personally I wouldn't apply a abdominal TQ unless I had somewhere I could evac my casualty to where they could receive proper medical care. Cutting off complete blood flow to the whole lower half of your body is not an ideal thing to do and should be addressed in under an hour.


I do agree with hit and run That guy but that is mission specific and only if I was facing an overwhelming force where such "guerrilla" tactics was needed. Because I do not think I would be looking for a fight because I've prepped enough that most of my encounters would be in a defensive type setting.

[EJR914]

Hit and run is a target specific tactic.  It works fine against small elements with little support but once you get going against organized forces that support may very well be a Block III Apache, WZ10, or Z-19 pulling data links from dismounts and drones already in orbit overhead - from orbit to engagement in under 30 seconds.  One flight can cover a battlespace of tens of square miles easily.  A Predator or VMA-10 with synthetic aperture radar to find you if you are moving from thousands of feet up in hundreds of square miles. Even the lowly block II Raven can fix you if you're putting out an IR signature.  Is it doable?  yeah.  But you better have your shit together.

Faint.  I think I'll stay at home and cry.

[thatGuy]

Yeah man, Treaded really painted a bleak picture didn't he?

Don't get me wrong gents I fully understand that there is a time and place for armor, several really but what I am looking for is someone to make a convincing argument against it.

Not because I am against owning cool tools but I know you can't eat SAPI plates or pump water with them...

[Treaded]

Yeah man, Treaded really painted a bleak picture didn't he?

Don't get me wrong gents I fully understand that there is a time and place for armor, several really but what I am looking for is someone to make a convincing argument against it.

Not because I am against owning cool tools but I know you can't eat SAPI plates or pump water with them...

Brother I've been on the giving end of that shit.  We used to send out dismounted patrols and as soon as they got hit roll call that gunship up in high orbit in.   I damn sure wouldn't want to be on the catching end of an AH64 in full dive with that 30mm barking and those 2.75s blowing shit up.  Now give me some Stingers or Grails - then we'll talk.

What are you looking for an argument for?  For or against wearing armor?    You won't get an argument against armor from me.  I done seen that shit save too many lives.  But there's a lot of junk out there and I think this german kevlar falls into that category. 

[thatGuy]

One of the things I most admire about our current adversary is that they have seen the might of the United States military from the shit end and still give it a shot, that takes some serious balls for sure.

The argument I am looking for is when and where it would be most advantageous to skip the armor. I understand that you train in yours and are stud rated on account of it but most of us don't and aren't. It's one of the problems I see with the discussion on the interwebz, when people start talking about serious shit they often times forget that their primary audience isn't on their level.

As example you and I could go over the merits of the Ferguson 3 point hitch compaired to the old drawbar system and leave the folks who were listening with a false sense of understanding by passing over the minor details simply because of our own life experiences and familiarity with the subject.

I know I am not the one to make an argument against armor do to my own background. It would lack genuine validity coming from me.