Author Topic: Battle Pistol Discussion  (Read 3341 times)

Offline JohnyMac

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Battle Pistol Discussion
« on: July 14, 2014, 08:56:48 AM »
I had a great chat this past Saturday over a cup of Joe with CJS06 concerning "safe queen" pistols and pistols you take into battle.

Currently I have traded my 1911 for a Browning Hi-Power as my battle pistol. Not because my 1911 is a safe queen but because of the magazine capacity. My new holster should be arriving any day now for my BHP - More on that later.

On this same topic, I read at another forum a gent who runs a Glock on his battle rattle. At the end of the day when he gets home he breaks the weapon down and puts it in the dish washer. Don't know if this is true or not however it does give you an idea of safe queen vs. battle pistol.

So...What do YOU think is the perfect battle pistol? Why? Pictures are encouraged.  ;D



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Offline Deathstyle

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 10:10:55 AM »
I like the FNX-.45. I like that its a .45 pistol that has a magazine capacity thats competitive with most 9mm pistols. The price is somewhere between glocks and 1911/H&Ks.



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« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 03:23:27 PM by JohnyMac »
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 10:59:48 AM »
Deathstyle,
I love it that this is a .45 ACP and the mag holds 15 rounds  :thumbsUp: IMO the only drawback is the $1,200- price tag. We are slowly approaching the price of my Kimber Eclipse Target II. Which might bring the user to keep in in the safe rather than use it to bust open a walnut shell with the butt of the handgun.  ;)

It would also be a great weapon for you folks who have a Treasury stamp for a noise suppressor.

Thanks...

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Offline CJS06

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 11:22:42 AM »
JohnyMac

Here is a pic of my M&P that is my go to "battle gun".  After shooting many others I found the M&P to have the best natural point of aim for me. I like and respect Glock, FN, etc but this gun works best for me.  I prefer it in 9mm as it has very low recoil for easy follow up shots and I am able to carry more ammo.  I use Tarten Tactical base pads on my mags that bring the capacity to 22 rds.  My max load out is 3 spare pistol mags (usually just 2) which gets me 88 rds including what is in the gun.  I dont worry about this gun at all, if it get dragged over rocks or I need to use the ground or a tree to manipulate it. If the finish gets smoked so be it.  This is truly a tool. I would still bang my TRP around, but would feel like crap doing it :-)  Please excuse the cell phone photography.


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« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 03:23:54 PM by JohnyMac »

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 11:48:06 AM »
A good question to ask your self trying to determine if your secondary is truly a battle gun ask your self...

One handed are you will to charge your hand gun with a rock, rock in a swamp, tree, etc?

Specifically, which model number is the weapon? M&P offer so many 9's.

Some great thoughts CJS. Thanks for the pic. I noticed that you M&P is ready for a suppressor.  ;) 



« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 11:56:47 AM by JohnyMac »
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Offline rah45

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 12:49:21 PM »
A related question: how much more quiet with a suppressor is a pistol chambered in .45 ACP vs. a 9mm? Including both supersonic and subsonic ammunition. Would this influence what caliber you use?

Offline CJS06

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 01:33:27 PM »
Rah and Johny

My M&P 9 started as just a standard with no safety.  I did a trigger job using Apex parts, installed a Storm Lake barrel, stippled the frame, and changed sights.  The barrel is threaded, though I have only used a friends can on it twice as I am not able to own one of these nasty quieting devices :pissed: here in my home state.  I installed the barrel to get the advantages of a "Pro" series extended slide model without getting an entirely new gun, and as you can see I didnt bother putting suppressor height sights on it.

As far as sound difference, when I have been able to shoot with people that have both .45 and 9mm cans, there is not a significant difference.  The real difference is between Sub and Super sonic loads. I would not pick a .45 or 9mm based off of the sound signature assuming both were the same type of ammo (sub or super).  I wish I had that dilemma to sort through :-)

Chris

Offline Deathstyle

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 04:14:23 PM »
Wth? $1,200!?!? Here it is selling for $699 and that includes the cost to make it cali legal and the fact that guns in california cost more compared to free states.
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 05:01:09 PM »
Thanks Deathstyle! The suggested MSRP is $1,200- when I looked the weapon up.  ;)
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 09:02:17 PM »

You are looking at the difference between the FNX 45 and the FNX 45 Tactical.  The std model doesnt have the extended barrel, suppressor height sights or a slide that is milled to accept an RMR.  The "extras" really are not worth it unless you definitely want the RMR on your gun. The std FNX45 can be an outstanding deal.

Offline rah45

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 11:00:27 PM »
Btw CJ, I'm really jealous of your 22 - rd capacity. You've got a sexy pistol there. ;-) I don't see any extended mag bases available for my Sig SP2022. :-(

Offline Currahee

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 11:11:28 PM »
All my fighting pistols are Glocks, CCW and "battle." This is what I would carry to war.



I went to the Glock factory last week and the refurbished my two most used ones for free.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 11:14:49 PM by Currahee »
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Offline USMC0331

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 12:13:21 AM »
Quote
syn·o·nym
noun \ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
: a word that has the same meaning as another word in the same language
: a word, name, or phrase that very strongly suggests a particular idea, quality, etc.

Example Given:  Reliability / Glock G17

If you wash it above 300F you stand a chance at melting stuff, dry cycle not recommended!

My SHTF gear is all setup for a G17/G22 with or without a WML.  Commonality and dependability is why I run a Glock and AR15.  Think about it!
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 09:56:37 AM »
Glocks are GREAT pistols....if they work for you stay with them...I prefer my M&Ps for "battle" and CCW, they fit me better.  They both do the same thing....unquestioned reliability and durability.  I cant comment on using a dishwasher to clean my guns, but I do use a big bucket of soapy water.  The one in the pic just came home from a couple of weeks where it was anything but cared for, went right into the bucket for a scrub, then dried, lubed and back to ready.

Currahee how has your luck been with the Inforce light.  That company is here in my very small home state. I use their WML on a couple of my carbines.  I tried out the pistol light but found that when it started getting hot after a 150 or so rounds it dimmed substantially and responded inconsistently to the pressure switch...I ended up changing back to my Surefire.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 11:02:49 AM »
A bit off topic however I think is an important comment and question for this topic.

Why have a light on your handgun?

I totally get a laser on your handgun like Crimson Tracebut I am less enthusiastic about a bloody flash light.

I remember having an offline/PM debate with Shawn of M&L fame once. His position at the beginning of the debate was "Bad things happen in the dark." My response was, "How many times will you use a flashlight fastened to your secondary in the dark?" Is it worth the:

> Extra weight,
> Piece of equipment hanging off your handgun,
> Something else to fail once you become reliant,
> Etc.

Last, I am not trying to start a firestorm here. I am sure other folks on the forum have asked that same question and are open to learn.

Thanks.  :shitStorm:
 
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Offline thatGuy

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2014, 12:05:12 PM »
"Bad things happen in the dark," that's some earthy wisdom there.

I'd like to tack a question to John's question, have you guys who run lights on your pistols noticed any affect on reliability of the firearm? 

Offline Currahee

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2014, 01:52:25 PM »
I carry a flashlight (Feniz attached to my reload pouch) with my CCW because in everyday situations I am just as likely to need a flashlight without pointing it at someone.  I keep a weapon light on my field pistol because I already have a very low power red light for light discipline and a NOD.  And, weapon light is much easier to use than the Harries position.  The pistol in that configuration is for when other stuff has gone to shit- primary failed, NOD failed etc.  The light is only for CQB indoor situation when using a light would be "less" likely to get you shot by some other bad-guy.  I actually frequently CCW that particular pistol during jacket weather.

They do not affect reliability at all.

I have good luck with the Inforce and am thinking about the IR WML for my rifle.
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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 03:00:11 PM »
I use the Taurus PT24/7 PRO DS in 9mm

Along with the Insight WL1AA light (which I actually got for my primary)

Offline CJS06

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 01:06:44 PM »
I keep a weapon light on by pistol (secondary) for the same reason that I keep one on my carbine (primary).  For situational uses (CQB, no NODS, low light).  I also carry a handheld light for some situations as well as a back up for my weapons lights. None of which are what you want to use if practicing light discipline, but if I am at the point of going to my secondary things have already gotten past worrying about that. At that point proper employment of my light then(hopefully) gives me the advantage. I have never had a reliability issue with any of my firearms related to a weapon light.

I am not a fan of lasers for anything other than IR for use under NODS.  a Laser will compromise you as easily as a flashlight in visible conditions, and I have found that concentrating on a Lasers point of aim produces lower results than proper sight/target acquisition.  It is harder to zero a Laser than most people think and many would find their Lasers way off from what they expect. A laser doesnt follow any ballistic trajectory, if zeroed at 10, 25, 50 yds etc, once you pass your point of intersection of POA/POI then the aim point gets farther and farther off.  A laser needs to almost run parallel the bore to get close over a variety of ranges and even then you need to understand the POI difference.

Offline USMC0331

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Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2014, 01:21:40 PM »
POA/POI and the effects of bullet drop are the same for notch/post, red dot, crosshairs, or lasers.

If you use a laser or dot to confirm your NPA while shooting  a flash SP, they are faster than any other common sighting device.  If a dot or laser is slowing you down... You are doing it wrong or don't have enough reps in.

 On  a handgun visible lasers or a dot make sense but the cost does not justify the gain if you have a good set of irons IMO. The only handgun I would like one on is my S&W 442 because of the horrible sights.
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Offline CJS06

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2014, 10:25:57 AM »
How many Lasers are in line with your Irons/Red Dots/Cross Hairs etc. Not many.  POA/POI is different than normal iron sights/ red dots mainly due to where the Laser is mounted on the gun......and in most cases people dont take that into account. If you train enough to understand the effects when under stress then fantastic let it ride.  How many people under stress forget the POI difference of a 50 yd zero when stressed, and this is just in the vertical plane (assuming a proper zero). If your Laser is mounted high and left did you take into account horizontal shift as well as vertical. Same for low and right, etc.  If you train enough that is great but lets face it you need to be competent with your irons first and many people try to use lasers as a short cut to accuracy.

 Lets look at a common handgun laser, where is it in relation to the bore, generally at least an inch to 1 1/4" below the bore. Your irons are maybe 3/8" to  1/2" above.  That means that the line from your sights "slopes down" until it intersects the line from the bore...at a relatively low angle.  The line from your laser "slopes up" until it intersects the line from the bore....at a considerably steeper angle.  The closer you are zeroed for the more dramatic the result.  If you are zeroed at 10yd for example( I am not suggesting this) with your irons, at 15 and 20 and 25yds you will be hitting slightly high, while conversely with the Laser you will be hitting low (proportionate to the angle). Also at 5 yards with your irons you will be low (though barely) and with your laser you will be high of your POA. That means that when  presenting to fire the person utilizing the laser need to process the corrections to get good hits.......easy at a square range, more difficult under stress.  I have RDS on a couple of my pistols (though I dont beleive they are worth the difference in cost over irons) and they co-witness with my iron so it doesnt matter which I shoot, or which gun I pick up technique is the same.  If I then grab a different gun with a rail mounted laser I now have a different set of variables.

As USMC0331 said....lots of reps....even more to understand what your specific laser/mounting position does.

I do not like visible lasers much because I do not want one of my sight systems to act differently than my others. My iron, dots, scopes, etc work generally in the same plane. Particularly because if you get too reliant and it goes down then you will be less effective with your others.  I use 45deg irons with some of my intermediate set ups on my rifles.  It takes reps to keep proficient with the effect of the position related to the bore.  Short quick snap shots are fine (which is mainly what they are for), precise shots at any longer range requires some thought.  When using an IR Laser with NODS as a primary aiming system  I zero taking into account my offset (my Raptar puts the IR laser above and to the right of the bore). I try to zero my IR laser so it stays a close to parallel with my bore and zeroed vertically for 100yds.  This means that my POI is slightly to the right of my POA when using my IR Laser.   Obviously different than with my Aimpoints, EOtechs, Leupolds, or irons.

If you like lasers, COOL, stick with them, just fully understand them and practice, practice, practice.


Offline DMCakhunter

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2014, 11:20:22 AM »
JM,
You can get more capacity with either a STI 2011 or  Para ord if you want a .45 auto in a 1911 style pistol. Nice thing is that the holsters are the same.
As for caliber, bigger is better if you can shoot it, but it weighs more too. Most people seem to want more capacity so 9mm's are common.
Does anyone have a concern about opponents wearing body armor? FN 5.7 or just shoot for the face?

Offline DMCakhunter

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2014, 11:21:38 AM »
Should be interesting to see what the military comes up with to replace the M-9.

Offline thatGuy

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2014, 03:13:24 PM »
Hearts and Minds DMC... hearts and minds...

Offline DMCakhunter

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Re: Battle Pistol Discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2014, 07:45:28 PM »
I agree, that is why i use this for practice. Paper targets are not fun anymore.
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