AR Scope

[JohnyMac]

O-Kay ladies and gents I will end up pining this subject line when it runs it's course. So be aware of that when you post your responses.

As my eyes are getting older (The rest of me is in great shape ;-)  ) I am thinking of replacing my Eotech XPS-2 Holographic sight with a traditional magnified scope.

My AO is wooded with some fields as long as 400 yards. So most of the scopes usage would be in less than 75 yard range.

I have looked at the Leupold Mark AR and VX-R Patrol FireDot but alas they are pretty pricey. Not the best for CQB but how many building entries will I be doing. 

So here are my questions for you folks in the know:

1) When using a traditional scope on a AR, what do you do with your cowitness rear sight? Mine wouldn't pop up with the scope on it. In theory you
    would have to loose it.
2) I have looked at a magnifier for my XPS-2 but that seems a bit hokie. Plus it ain't cheap either.
3) Should I go with a 1x4 or a 3x9? My maximum distance I will be shooting is maybe 400 yards.
4) Money is an issue but not the final consideration.

Anyhow, just some rambling thoughts. I am sure some other folks have similar questions on this subject. 

[Kbop]

will you need the glass for scouting to, or only lining up a shot?
- that is one advantage of variable magnification.  wide FOV for scouting & ranging, narrow for a shot.
will you be doing any low light shooting?  if yes, then skip the higher magnification.

[JohnyMac]

Who knows Kbop on the low light sitch. I would suspect yes.

When I go deer hunting I have a Leupold scope on my Savage model 99. I keep it at a 2 X setting until about 30 minutes till sunset. Then I go to 1 X. Need all of the light I can get 

I just found the Leupold Mark AR.

I am sorry to keep going back to Leupold scopes its just that I have several and LOVE their customer service. I am NOT married to Leupold.

[DMCakhunter]

I did a review on the Trijicon VCOG and love it. Pricy though. I read good things about the Votex Strike eagle.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-strike-eagle-1-6x24-riflescope-ar-bdc-reticle/reticle

[CJS06]

I admit that I am a bit of a glass snob.  I have tried many different scopes optics and the one thing that has been true is that you get what you pay for in performance/ durability/ and finally value.  That doesnt mean you need to spend the for the most expensive thing you can find, just avoid the "cheap" stuff.  There are plenty of good mid price range optics that are very good quality.

I suffer from a similar problem to JohnyMac....aging eyes. I only have 1 red dot on a rifle that i use most of the time for low-light/ night work where I am primarily using my IR Laser.  For the ranges that JM mentioned (CQB to 400yds) I settled on the Elcan Spectre Dr which is a 1-4x. It is ultra durable, has a decent field of view, a very fast user friendly reticle for shooting out to 500 yds and good quality clear glass.  It is either a 1 or a 4x that uses a simple lever on the side to switch between. It is a bit on the expensive end ($2k ish) but I find it to be more than worth it.

For variable scopes there are a number I have owned and or tried.  Here is a list in order of what I prefered but their costs range greatly. All of these are great, but i preferred the better field of view and flexible eye relief provided by the Elcan.
1. Leupold Mk6 1-6
2. Vortex Razor 1-6
3. Nightforce  NXS 1-4
4. Trijicon VCOG 1-6
5. Trijicon Accupoint 1-6
6 Leupold VX-R 1-4

I have not personally used it but have had very positive reviews of the Primary Arms 1-6x.  I am not a fan of ACOGs due to the eye relief and field of view, but they are bomb-proof. I have have also heard good things about the Vortex Strike Eagle.

For any rifle that uses magnified Optics I have 45deg offset Irons.  Generally if a scope goes bad it is broken glass often blocking the view through the tube so even having a co-witnessed irons become un-useable.  There are a number of good 45deg irons to choose from. I have mostly KAC micros for folders and Dueck Defense(Surefire) RTS for fixed.  Magpul Pro 45 deg offsets are very nice folders and not a huge price.  On one rifle I use a Trijicon SRS on a 45deg mount, but that is really an experimental thing I am doing in conjunction wit a 2.5-10x scope.

Chris

[JohnyMac]

Great feedback gentleman. Keep it coming.

[gadget99]

Good question there JM.

This one does fall within the personal preference realm though.

In technical terms though. For the distances you are talking about along with usability. 4x is the max usable magnification.

If you put optics on your AR then just accept that you are not going to use the Iron Sights while it is on.

Something like a bulk standard ACOG (maybe 3x mag) with a reflex or open sights on top of it could be a good compromise.

Yet again as I said personal pref is big here.

After being assigned to Battalion HQ as staff and having to leave behind my lovely M21. I bought a Leupold 3x9 and a mount for the M16a2 carry handle and carried that.

Cheers

[JohnyMac]

Gadget, that configuration (Scope on carry handle) seem a bit awkward. Was it?

[gadget99]

Gadget, that configuration (Scope on carry handle) seem a bit awkward. Was it?

It was a bit until I got used to it.

That was in 1992 so the options were a bit limited.

Though as I preached before. Many days on the range getting used to it made the world of difference.

I guarantee that up to 300yds I was comfortable with head shot capability. Though you always shoot for center mass. As long as I kept an Eye on the wind (when it was strong) I was good with taking up to 500yrd shots in an operational capacity. Meaning if it was within 500yds I would be willing to engage.

With that combo I needed the semi-auto capability of the M16A2. In a good supported position I could take a shaot and still keep the scope on the target. Thus be able to observe round strike and immediatly adjust for an immediate follow-on shot.

The key here is shooting on the range as much as possible to gain the proficiency and confidence needed.

During that time I spent from 3 to 5 days a week on the range coaching and shooting.

Of that time I averaged shooting a good two hours out of each day.

Now that was not all long range. Yet take a look at the amount of time there.

Not what most people can do. Yet remember good quality training is better than just training.

If you want to be able to shoot to 500yds then you need to shoot alot to that distance.

People would be seriously suprised at the inherent accuracy of most standard firearms.

Cheers

[CJS06]

Gadget

Thanks for the insight from your experiences, particularly in regard to your time involved in marksmanship.

I couldnt agree more with you that using the right glass totally a personal preference. What I find great you may not like at all. My little brother is still active in a job that has him doing a significant amount of direct action work. He is actually the one that introduced me to the Elcan. He was working with an ODA team that was using them almost to a man. He personally doesnt use one but did turn me on to trying it.  I like it more than the ACOG mainly due the ability to use as a RDS on 1x or magnified on 4x with a super intuitive BDC.  I have been running a trijicon RMR on a 45 with a 2.5-10x on another rifle which is great for a precision set up but I did not like it as much for a General Purpose go to gun.

Chris

[Nemo]

Go with the 3x9.  The more magnificaiton you have, the close it seems you are, the better you shots will be.  They will also make your normal drifting around appear less solid on target so you pay more attention.

Nemo

[Grudgie]

I gotta say I love my Trijicon Ta31rco-a4cp. I don't know if it is in your budget, you could probably get a used one for $1100.

4x magnification, Illuminated reticle, no batteries, always on, built like a tank. Drop compensation for m855. The bible verse stamped on the side for extra spiritual powers. You can train your eyes to use it as a red dot by keeping both eyes open. If scope is held infront of right eye, concentrate on the vision from the left eye and it becomes a red dot. Concentrate on the vision from the right eye and it becomes a 4x magnified scope. It's easier than it sounds.

[Swampy]

1) When using a traditional scope on a AR, what do you do with your cowitness rear sight? Mine wouldn't pop up with the scope on it. In theory you
    would have to loose it.

I realize this is an old thread but my answer to this question had not been addressed in the thread so I thought I might as well reply anyway. You don't need to give up BUS when using a magnified optic. Just use offset ones. There are several companies that make them. I have the Magpul ones:  https://www.magpul.com/products/mbus-pro-offset-sight-front  and they work fine. Let me know if it would have been better to start a new thread on this topic. 

[preparator]

I have the Magpul ones:  https://www.magpul.com/products/mbus-pro-offset-sight-front  and they work fine.

Also have a Magpul, and a   Ohuhu combo wrench  tool.  Made of steel, powder coat finish, very handy.

[CJS06]

For any rifle that uses magnified Optics I have 45deg offset Irons.  Generally if a scope goes bad it is broken glass often blocking the view through the tube so even having a co-witnessed irons become un-useable.  There are a number of good 45deg irons to choose from. I have mostly KAC micros for folders and Dueck Defense(Surefire) RTS for fixed.  Magpul Pro 45 deg offsets are very nice folders and not a huge price.  On one rifle I use a Trijicon RMR on a 45deg mount, but that is really an experimental thing I am doing in conjunction wit a 2.5-10x scope.

Chris

I edited it to read RMR as I realized that I accidentally put Trijicon SRS in the original post.  That would be interesting having something as big as the SRS on a 45deg mount.... I still have the RMR on a 45 on my one rifle, but for the most part I stick with irons on the 45 in conjunction with magnified optics.

[JohnyMac]

@ Swampy wrote, " Let me know if it would have been better to start a new thread on this topic. ", Nope you did good. Bringing up old archive posts is how newer folks learn. Like the off-set irons from Magpul.

On another note: When I followed the Magpul link to the sights and looked at what came up, I couldn't stop my self from thinking, "Man O' man, that AR must weigh a ton with all of those tacticool items attached. 
 

[Erick]

A view abit out of left field and please forgive if the question is   bit personal....or taking the thread in a different direction...:

Are your visual acuity issues lowered density of rods+cones, or are they due to clouding of the lens or refractory errors?

The 2 latter conditions can be addressed quite effectively by eye surgery...prices of which keep dropping by the year..and the results will stay with you in a grid down..

In that case might be worth selling some rifles to fund it if neccessary.... just a thought out of left field

[Swampy]

On another note: When I followed the Magpul link to the sights and looked at what came up, I couldn't stop my self from thinking, "Man O' man, that AR must weigh a ton with all of those tacticool items attached. 

 The dude in the pic only has a twenty round mag in his rifle though so that helps make up for it. 

[JohnyMac]

LOL Swampy, yeah that will make up the weight difference. 

[CJS06]

Man you guys are tough....I saw something completely different....all I saw was an AR w/ a lightweight Geissele rail with a Vortex 2.5-10 and Magpul 45deg sights and a bipod....oh yeah and a can.  Other than the bipod that is a pretty slick set up. Looks kind of familiar.

[Nemo]

Hey, he gets special skill points for the bipod.  That makes it a sniper rife.

Nemo

[JohnyMac]

@ CJS.

I am going to have your pic blown up and make a 18x24" poster. Then put it on the wall in my bedroom 

Magpul s1 sling?

[CJS06]

Johny you are killing me! 

It is a Blue Force Gear  padded sling with QD's

[JohnyMac]

  CJS06