Making a house out of a container

[JohnyMac]

Well that sucks!

[graynomad]

how do you plan to insulate those sea cans?...except one where we did it my way

Not sure yet, yes they do get very hot. One of them is under the trees and it's never too warm, the other is half covered in solar panels so that gives it a tropical roof, so far that's not got very hot either but as that will be the living room I do need to pay attention to insulating it.

The main thing it to keep the sun off, so a tropical roof does that mostly, then allow for a LOT of ventilation, in our case large windows with shutters to shade them. And finally insulation, at present I'm thinking to put bats between the lining and the wall, but a lot of people use spray foam which is good because it forms a vapour barrier so you don't get any condensation inside the walls. I will look into the cost of that.

You can also clad and insulate on the outside, technically I think that is better but I want ours to look like containers so that's not an option for us.

We've been living in what is essentially a container (the truck)  for 13 years, with 3/4" of closed-cell foam, thermal paint, solar panels and huge openings it's been very comfortable up to 42C even when parked in direct sun, so I guess I'm not to worried about this for the containers.

I am interested to here what you did.

So the structure is independent from the frame and has a certain amount of "play"? is what I gather from your 3 point system.

Correct, as done on most 4x4 trucks and indeed my current truck. It works well and isolates the body from the torsion produced in the chassis. If you don't do that you will get a bent body with most off road vehicles although it depends on the vehicle. Some have stiff chassis and long-travel suspension, some have flexible chassis and bugger-all suspension. In the first case you don't have to worry much, in the second case you do.

Check these pics of my truck





This was while I was testing the chassis twist, that's a 10-degree twist at the rear of the truck and it's all in the chassis as the suspension on these International ACCOs is basically non-existant.

I'm imagining this decreasing the force acted upon the structure during transportation

Correct.

I doubt this would help out any passengers

Possibly, but there will be no passengers in this.

We have two threads going here but we are all smart enough to keep them going on this subject line.

Yes, got a bit side tracked. I hope it's OK.

There is nothing better than mixing alcohol and big machinery you know.

Yeah, a great combination

The plan is to bury it in the side of a large knoll near the cabin.

You can bury them but take note of thatGuy's post Containers are very strong on the corners as they are designed for huge vertical loads on those points, everywhere else is not so strong.

I've seen it done by building gabion walls around the sides to handle the pressure, they would also help with drainage which is a problem if you aren't on the side of a hill. The roof I'm not sure about, depends on how deep you want I guess, but that will need re-enforcing as well. Container rooves are spec'd to carry two men only and even then not standing too close to reduce the point loading.

EDIT:

This guy seems to have got away with it with just insulation on the sides, go figure.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Underground-Seacan-Emergency-Quarters/

Personally I'd be inclined to do more and the gabions seem right to me.

[Burt Gummer]

We have two threads going here but we are all smart enough to keep them going on this subject line.

Yes, got a bit side tracked. I hope it's OK.

Mea Culpa everyone...
I've created a new topic for the vehicle with all prior pertaining comments.
http://unchainedpreppers.com/forum/d-i-y/gray-nomad%27s-vehicle-topic/new/#new

[graynomad]

Back to container houses, got a couple of walls up on mine over the last few days, here's one of them.



Simple post and plank construction to enclose the area between the two containers.

[Older Marine]

Love this thread. Here in Florida I've been looking at

http://www.equipmenttraderonline.com/Cargo-Containers/search-results?category=Cargo+Containers%7C2011132

for getting containers. Low prices

I was once told you can bury old school buses, they won't cave in.

[graynomad]

you can bury old school buses, they won't cave in.

That may be, but I'd let you go inside first 

It's quite likely that are stronger in the walls than a container because they are presumably designed to protect the little kiddies if there's an accident. The windows would be an issue I think though.

Some good prices there, note how there's naff all difference in cost between a 10, 20 and 40 footers.

[JohnyMac]

So an open question to the group on this subject: We want to bury our sea can. What is the forums recommendations on doing that without collapsing the sides/roof?

My first thought would be building a load bearing wall/roof using 4x4's and plywood.

[Older Marine]

Hello Johnymac

I found this site regarding burying a cargo container:

http://www.prepper-resources.com/burying-the-box-shipping-container-tips/

It doesn't answer all questions but it's a start.

If it were me, I would look into old school buses. Buses were engineered to withstand the pressures. I remember seeing a show where a man buried like 30 buses and had a huge compound underground. They've been buried for many years and no problems.

The best part is the bus doesn't need to run, should be able to buy cheap.

[JohnyMac]

Thx OM, but have already purchased and delivered the sea box 

[graynomad]

I saw one where he made a gabion wall around the box and placed pre-cast concrete beams over the top, that would be my first choice. I don't know if drainage will be an issue where you are but the gabions would be good for that. I would also place the box on four foundations to keep the floor off the ground, I'm a big fan of allowing air flow all around them. Basically I would build a self-supporting cave and place the container inside it, so you almost could ask "Why have the container in the first place?"

This would not be a cheap option though, well it could be as the gabions cost almost nothing if you have a good supply of rocks and maybe you can find some second hand concrete beams.

Any timber will eventually rot unless it's a very arid area so arid or not there should be good drainage unless it never rains.

I have a mate who half buried one, IIRC all he did was bitumen the outside, cut a hole into a bank, put the box in and backfilled. But that has nothing on the roof and the dirt is right up to the top at the back tapering down to nothing at the front so the forces would not have been great.

All that said, and bearing in mind that I am in no way a mechanical/civil engineer, my gut feeling is that if the area is arid a 4x4 frame with maybe 1" ply or formply would be strong enough. Built so the top beams act as a spreader for the side beams, ie they are "inside" them and hold the sides apart. This assumes there's not much weight on the top. I would use a lot of 4x4 beams though, maybe one every 2 feet or so.

If there is a lot of dirt on the top maybe run two RSJs along the edges that are supported on the corners and place the 4x4s on them.

I tend to over engineer everything and the the guy in the link I posted before just used Styrofoam insulation on the sides. Honestly I would say what he did was not good enough, and he had what looks like old railway sleepers across the roof to spread the load but they themselves were only supported by the container sides, that's not on as the sides are not load bearing. The sleepers resting on RSJs which in turn are supported by the corners would be ok I think. It looks like that project is about 3 years old, it would be good to see if it all worked out.

[JohnyMac]

I guess I should share the vision of what we are going to do.

This buried container will only have MAYBE one foot of dirt over the roof and it will be blocked off in a way that nobody would drive across it with a tractor, bulldozer or truck. It was going to be installed in a knoll hollowed out with a dozer and back-haul.

Based on the fact shipping containers are piled 5 or 6 high on ships that regularly go across oceans I never thought there would be an issue.

The container is going to be used as a root cellar not to live in.

Based on what i have read, I suppose I will have to build a shell around the sides and roof. The base was going to be just crushed stone and I think that will be just fine.

I will use 2x8's for the rafters placed with 16" centers. The rafters will be lag bolted into the weather treated 4x4' columns. On the rafters I will place 1" sheets of 4x8' plywood. On the sides I will use 5/8" plywood nailed to the columns. Hopefully this will prevent the "oil canning" affect for at least 20 years. After that I will most likely be eating pablum with no teeth or dead. It will be my nephew and nieces problem at that point.

Thoughts?     

[Burt Gummer]

How about PVC tubing? Line the sides with it. Transfer the majority of the stress to the frame of the container instead of the walls.
I'd imagine it would be more cost effective then steel or concrete, it would also last for ever.
Just a thought...

[JohnyMac]

As long as PVC would as cost effective as 4x4" pleasure treated columns. It sure would last for ever ;-)

[crudos]

As long as PVC would as cost effective as 4x4" pleasure treated columns. It sure would last for ever ;-)

"pleasure treated columns" 
What kind of wild PVC do you have out there JM? 

[graynomad]

Based on the fact shipping containers are piled 5 or 6 high on ships that regularly go across oceans I never thought there would be an issue.

I think the spec calls for stacking up to 10 or maybe even 14 high, and then you have the dynamic forces as that column of containers moves with the ship. So they are incredibly strong, but only for vertical loads on the corners, the infills (sides and especially the roof) are quite weak.

I will use 2x8's for the rafters placed with 16" centers.

Presumably mounted vertically like floor joists.

Thoughts?

As I said I'm not qualified but my feeling is that what you describe would be pretty good.

PVC pipes are not very strong until you get to the larger sizes, maybe 12" or more. I bought a stack of 2" to make a roof frame and decided it was no good. That said I reckon a wall of vertical PVC pipes filled with concrete would be a good way to do it. That would be a very simple method of building a concrete barrier as there is no formwork required. You could set brackets into the concrete at the top of each pillar to mount the joists that span the roof, and the barrier itself would be impervious to water and last forever.

None of the things we are talking about protect the container from water though, I think a liberal coating of bitumen or similar would be a good idea.

[graynomad]

Update, half the roof on and slow combustion stove almost installed.

[thatGuy]

I'm with Gray, I don't feel qualified to give a real answer and over build everything. That said I would,

Pour reinforced concrete bond beams (under the columns and 4' on center, 6"x6" at least) under the can that tied into a 6" thick reinforced concrete wall with a beamed slab poured over the top of the container but at that rate you don't need the can anyhow..

[thatGuy]

Gray, on the topic of insulation we've had good luck with spray foam but for a house I assume you're gonna want to finish the walls and blasting screws though your seacan probably isn't gonna work for you.. Right??

If I was going to live in it I would pick up some steel stud and matching slip track. You can get those studs in 1 5/8" iirc which is enough to fit electrical boxes in. I would put down some plastic so the foam doesn't f'up your floor and lay the track right over it and screw them down tight to the wall. I would stop that wall so I could lay the studs for my lid over the top. I would go with 3 1/2" 16g stud cause drywall gets heavy and by screwing the top track of the wall you get to avoid putting any screw though the can.

I would then hang my boxes, pull my wire and shoot the foam. Then I would trim the foam flush with the studs, clean out my boxes, hang the lid and then the walls. A little tape, texture, paint and wiring in the receptacles should make it feel up town. Cut the plastic and throw your base board on and stand by to be showered with love.

[graynomad]

Yeah, putting screws through the walls will be frowned upon

I would trim the foam flush with the studs

With what? A wire stretched between studs? Or just hack away with a knife?

Also, how would you fix the studs to the steel wall?

[thatGuy]

I wouldn't attach the studs to the wall, I would attach them to the joist in the ceiling.

My logic is you can put a flimsy box into a sturdy one and have it be sound provided you've got a tight fit.

I've always seen handsaw blades used. The butchers that do the foam work pull the handle off and weld two bolts to it as handles so it 'cuts' flush down the studs.

[graynomad]

Ah yes I see, no need to use fasteners on the internal box, maybe some adhesive to make it all nice and tight.

Good trick with the saw blade, I need to think more outside the box I will research the cost of the foam in these parts. I just bought these



Maybe I can re-purpose one of them, nah that would be a waste, I'll get a $10 saw form the hardware store.

[thatGuy]

Christ Almighty Gray, if you even dream about welding anything to those beautiful buck saws you'd better double check the tree line for me!

Here I was thinking I'm the only one who loves old saws... I've got a crosscut bucksaw, still need a rip tooth and a misery whip.

[graynomad]

I better get into  eh 

No I won't be touching these apart from a clean, sharpen and set. I just got a Stanley #43 saw set so before long I'll have to learn the fine art of saw sharpening/setting. I'll never be a expert at that but these are going to be working saws so I have to be able to keep them in good shape.

As you can see they are set up for two man, I'm by myself so will either move the handles or just add some in case I have someone visiting who needs the exercise. I probably paid a little over the top for these but they are in good nick, some cheap ones have almost no gullet left they've been sharpened so much. Also I didn't want a peg and raker tooth pattern because I think that's a lot harder to set. So when I saw these three I just grabbed them.

[thatGuy]

Believe it or not saw filing isn't so difficult, it is time consuming and boring..

That said there is nothing better than a sharp saw flying though green wood, even if you over paid!

[Burt Gummer]

Maybe I can re-purpose one of them, nah that would be a waste, I'll get a $10 saw form the hardware store.

Maybe like this?

http://youtu.be/d3_KhntMjRk