Unchained Preppers
General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: Kentactic on November 21, 2015, 06:21:36 PM
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Has anyone taken a Tactical response class? I feel like I've asked this before. If you have, do you recommend it? Fighting pistol will be near me in April and I'm considering signing up.
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More specific info on the class you are considering please?
Nemo
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More specific info on the class you are considering please?
Nemo
The class is called fighting pistol.
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Taught by?
Held at?
Range ?
Website or ??
Certs of instructor?
Nemo
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Tactical Response
Near Ken
Also near Ken
Google Tactical Response
Listed on web site
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Tactical response could be a bunch of types of classes from a bunch of places.
tacticalresponse.com would have been more than sufficient to point me where I wanted to go. But I have looked at that site before and would very much like to join you in one of them. First one would likely be the Fast and Accurate Pistol.
Keep in mind this is the guy, James Yeager, that got alot of jerks from the side "other" than us gave him a bunch of flak a year or 2 ago about his attempting to start an insurrection against the govt and questioned his certs.
Penny pile dedicated to that is growing but not quite there yet.
I thought I saw something there that made it $500 for one but $750 for 2 signing up together. At the TN facility. That would likely permit 2 of us to go for the weekend, including food, gas, motel and such for right at the $500 total. HHMMMM.
Nemo
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I didnt want to post at first because I have not had first hand experience.
Its one of those polarizing places.
I like their philosophy and where they stand ideologically.
They have gotten a lot of flak from more established places but they are not afraid to teach fire and movement which only few other places do.
Have never attended any of their classes though.
Also getting flak from the mainstream schools is not necessarily a bad thing since they all subscribe to the SWAT paradigm which is really a training misdirection for armed civilians.
Their prerequisite policy is kind of crazy, like for some of thier Advanced classes they require Their entry Fighting rifle class ( which admittedly looks like it covers the right things from the description) OR be within last the year an active Tier 1 SOCOM dude (laughter)
In general their heart seems to be in the right place though..
PS:I really like Max Velocity Tactical.
I've gone there many many times once I found them as I was turned off by the Kris Costa type training mainstream.
.. MVT focuses on fire and movement and realistic learning and application of a Light Infantry curriculum as opposed to the blue barrels and "tactical" transition dancing so beloved of the SWAT centric training providers.
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I don't know who the instructors will be for this particular class. I have an email in to them for that answer. As far as location I'm figuring it will be held at Angeles shooting range in Los Angeles. Before I sign up I need to verify that the same SWAT dude that teaches classes at this range, will not be teaching this class. I've already wasted $550 on him.
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Kentactic
I am not a big fan of Tactical Response. They have posted their philosophy, prerequisites, etc. The problem is who the instructor you get is. There can be a very wide range of quality. I have only a small amount of experience with them but find there to be a bit too much bluster and not enough substance.
As far as people teaching shooting and moving I have found the opposite. Almost any decent instructor is teaching shooting, maneuver, cover, and space/time. Some intro pistol courses or "level 1" courses may not get into it much but it generally depends on the level of the shooters that you have in the class you happen to be in. Any instructor needs to always think SAFETY first and as a result you will find they often need to teach to the lowest skill set in the class not highest. The higher the course level this is not as much an issue. If an instructor is not concerned with this then DO NOT train with them....I have seen too many NDs/ADs and thankfully only 1 training related GSW and that was self inflicted.
Erik I dont know which of the "mainstream" training courses follow the SWAT paradigm that you are describing. Almost any training is going to establish fundamental first then build. I spend a probably inordinate ammount of time training with a wide variety of different instructors (Costa, Proctor, Smith, Cowan, Petty, Holland, Doyle, Mcnamara, etc) and their instruction is far from standardized. If anything it has moved away from an institutionalized format. As an example Will Petty's VCQB is probably a ton more realistic and more likely to be a situation that you will be in than utilizing light infantry tactics. That doesnt mean I dont find those classes valuable as well. Most of those guys are doing small unit, small team (2-3 guys) courses as well. You may not see it on their course registration pages as they tend to be word of mouth out to shooters they have experience with because of that whole safety(....read liability) thing. I would love to get down to take some Max Velocity classes as well. I really like he course of instruction that he seems to be developing and have heard nothing but good things.
For a very good pistol course that I have found really helped my skills to develop I would look at Frank Proctor, Nic Smith, or Mike Panone. If I were to suggest one I would probably start with Proctor or Panone. Panone gets out to LA on a fairly regular basis. Nic Smith is currently overseas and when he is home instructs mostly on the East Coast....though he is possibly moving out to So.Cal and will be teaching more on the Left Coast.
In the end get something out of whatever training you attend TR, MV, whatever. Travel is the one thing that adds the most to the cost of training. Find any reputable trainers coming to your area and take the class. Dont get focused on just one trainer. There are some very good trainers I am glad I went to but probably wont go back to just because of a "feel". Sometimes I get to a class and find that there is a bunch of guys on a shooting vacation getting to use all the cool guy gear they bought....those are the crap classes. I have taken multiple pistol, carbine, heavy carbine, patrol, vehicle, CQB, small unit, precision rifle, low/no light, and force on force sim courses. Whatever you do go into it with the right mindset about learning and taking from the class skills you can continue to develop well after the class is over.
Chris
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Thanks for the response Chris.
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Also, TR emailed back and said they don't know who the instructor will be yet but he will be from tactical response. My fear was getting a watered down version instructed by some CA instructor.
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Well I signed up for fighting pistol in April. Looking forward to it. It's on Saturday-Sunday so I'm going to take Friday off from work being it's a 3 hour drive there and I don't want to be rushed. I'll get a hotel for Friday and Saturday night. Still need to buy 1000 rounds of 9mm and various pieces of gear.
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Awesome! Let us know how it goes. I'm taking a Vehicle CQB course with Will Petty in April. Infortunately it requires a flight to Utah rather than just a 3 hr drive :o.
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Hey, Freedom Ammunition has 9mm for like $169-. If you are interested Ken just click on their banner at the bottom of the Home Screen.
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Awesome! Let us know how it goes. I'm taking a Vehicle CQB course with Will Petty in April. Infortunately it requires a flight to Utah rather than just a 3 hr drive :o.
Yeah, I'll be flying or driving to Tennessee eventually because they don't offer a lot of their classes out of state.
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Woops... Quoted wrong guy...
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I see now that they are offering the "trifecta" starting with fighting pistol, then immediate action medical and then force on force all in a row for 6 days of fun. I think I'm going to add immediate action medical which is Monday-Tuesday and then if I can get the whole week off and there's still available spots, I'll upgrade to all three classes at the discount price ($1500).
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Hey, Freedom Ammunition has 9mm for like $169-. If you are interested Ken just click on their banner at the bottom of the Home Screen.
Right on thanks for the heads up JM.
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I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.
http://www.valorridge.com/ (http://www.valorridge.com/)
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I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.
[url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url])
Yeah I'm subbed to him on YouTube. I actually just caught on to the existence of his school the other day. I would imagine he's teaching very similar to Tactical response but who knows. I see that he took "danger check" with him.
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anyone can take a tactical response class for free.
Just have someone shoot your friend in the artery, leave your parking brake on in your car before hiding in a ditch. Easy peasy and free. :coffeeNews:
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anyone can take a tactical response class for free.
Just have someone shoot your friend in the artery, leave your parking brake on in your car before hiding in a ditch. Easy peasy and free. :coffeeNews:
The ole "attack his character rather than his argument" routine? I'll bite.
Let's say he's a total coward that panics in a gunfight. Does that prove that he's teaching bad tactics or is it totally besides the point? What if we factor in the fact that Yeager is one of like 6 instructors that teach the material? Is anyone who has learned the material a coward by default? Do you know any of his material? If so, are you now too a coward? Does being a coward imply that you are incapable of learning certain things and then teaching them to others? Is a school teacher wrong if he's a coward and teaches kids stuff? What specific mental disciplines are effected by the coward complex? Can we move past this tired unfounded argument now?
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anyone can take a tactical response class for free.
Just have someone shoot your friend in the artery, leave your parking brake on in your car before hiding in a ditch. Easy peasy and free. :coffeeNews:
The ole "attack his character rather than his argument" routine? I'll bite.
Let's say he's a total coward that panics in a gunfight. Does that prove that he's teaching bad tactics or is it totally besides the point? What if we factor in the fact that Yeager is one of like 6 instructors that teach the material? Is anyone who has learned the material a coward by default? Do you know any of his material? If so, are you now too a coward? Does being a coward imply that you are incapable of learning certain things and then teaching them to others? Is a school teacher wrong if he's a coward and teaches kids stuff? What specific mental disciplines are effected by the coward complex? Can we move past this tired unfounded argument now?
What a stupid argument.
Obviously, Yeager doesn't have a clue about tactics. I mean, anyone with a beard/goatee that looks like something snipped from Swamp Thing's ass doesn't understand how tactics work.
Sincerely,
Keyboard Commando
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anyone can take a tactical response class for free.
Just have someone shoot your friend in the artery, leave your parking brake on in your car before hiding in a ditch. Easy peasy and free. :coffeeNews:
The ole "attack his character rather than his argument" routine? I'll bite.
Let's say he's a total coward that panics in a gunfight. Does that prove that he's teaching bad tactics or is it totally besides the point? What if we factor in the fact that Yeager is one of like 6 instructors that teach the material? Is anyone who has learned the material a coward by default? Do you know any of his material? If so, are you now too a coward? Does being a coward imply that you are incapable of learning certain things and then teaching them to others? Is a school teacher wrong if he's a coward and teaches kids stuff? What specific mental disciplines are effected by the coward complex? Can we move past this tired unfounded argument now?
Any opinions about TR training need to be based off of the training curriculum and instructor implementation of it. All of the other nonsense about the internet blather should not come into it. If you dont like him for something that you read on the internet then dont take a class with them. I personally was not a fan of TR classes because I did not like the presentation style and overall message...too much bluster and "do it this way.....because we say"and "everybody else doesnt know what they are doing". That may have changed over time as the curriculum has developed but I'm all set with TR. Some people I know liked them so more power to them. I would rather see someone get training than not because of the garbage out on the internet.
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Well put CJS! :thumbsUp:
During the PA. hunting season we had as a hunting guest here that was a Security Contractor. He is back in the sandbox as I write.
While checking out my battle kit he offered some great suggestions. My point is he offered suggestions and in no way pushed his agenda. Just before he left the cabin I asked him about his easy approach to training. His response was to not change folks approach to things if it worked for them. He just wanted to offer suggestions/ alternative approaches that might be better. In a firefight a second saved here or there might be the difference of loosing or winning.
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anyone can take a tactical response class for free.
Just have someone shoot your friend in the artery, leave your parking brake on in your car before hiding in a ditch. Easy peasy and free. :coffeeNews:
The ole "attack his character rather than his argument" routine? I'll bite.
Let's say he's a total coward that panics in a gunfight. Does that prove that he's teaching bad tactics or is it totally besides the point? What if we factor in the fact that Yeager is one of like 6 instructors that teach the material? Is anyone who has learned the material a coward by default? Do you know any of his material? If so, are you now too a coward? Does being a coward imply that you are incapable of learning certain things and then teaching them to others? Is a school teacher wrong if he's a coward and teaches kids stuff? What specific mental disciplines are effected by the coward complex? Can we move past this tired unfounded argument now?
Any opinions about TR training need to be based off of the training curriculum and instructor implementation of it. All of the other nonsense about the internet blather should not come into it. If you dont like him for something that you read on the internet then dont take a class with them. I personally was not a fan of TR classes because I did not like the presentation style and overall message...too much bluster and "do it this way.....because we say"and "everybody else doesnt know what they are doing". That may have changed over time as the curriculum has developed but I'm all set with TR. Some people I know liked them so more power to them. I would rather see someone get training than not because of the garbage out on the internet.
Sounds about right. I'll see for myself how it is. Even if it's terrible it's going to top the list for CA training.
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So I did take "fighting Pistol" with Tactical response on April 19-20. I give the class a 7 out of 10. They didn't blow my mind on too many things in their class. I was pretty up to date with what they teach through much of Yeager's videos. That being said, the class took what I understood and added more confidence and clarity to it. There were a handful of things I had zero knowledge of prior to the class though. Taking the class in California left nothing out from what I gathered. One of the first things we did on the first morning was put our hand up and promise to never utter the words "Is that legal?". At that range was the first time in CA where I knew I was around nothing but understanding people in terms of the necessity to carry and I had no concern for judging eyes in any regard. The first day I ran an OWB holster with flashlight. On the second day I ran IWB without a flashlight. I pulled all spare mags from my jean pocket for maximum realism.
They can be a little abrasive IF you show up with an ego. For example, I kept catching hot brass on day one. One time hot brass from my neighbor landed INSIDE my eyewear right under my eye. Naturally I did an epileptic shaking of my eyewear to get it out. After that round one of the instructors announced(not singling me out) that we need to buck up and deal with the short term pain if brass lands in unfortunate places for realism purposes. If we get shot we aren't going to stop fighting so hot brass shouldn't be a problem. My ego was a little bruised so it was a great reminder to not have an ego and to take as much impartial knowledge as possible from the class. I was actually looking forward to more hot brass after that but it never came to test me again.
The instructors were not safety whores unless you ignored their commands, which is obviously understandable. They felt perfectly comfortable with everyone standing next to their targets as they demo'd the next drill. The students were also setup only a couple feet apart and in some case would be shooting beyond one another if they got behind in a moving drill when regressing from or progressing toward a target. Key here is to fix malfunctions on the move so you don't end up with a guy 20 feet behind you, shooting at the target 2 feet to your left. It avoids the "Fucking move" command from the instructors also.
Another thing I liked about the class was the emphasis on keeping your pistol loaded. They didn't like to see guys with empty guns after a drill so it was first priority to load the weapon back up. This meant going through a full repetition of the correct draw stroke(yell "stop", move, draw pistol, reload gun, reluctantly reholster).
There was more I liked about the class, one of which being the homework after day one and a few other things I shall not mention. I'd recommend the class to anyone interested in improving their ability to fight with a pistol. One thing I should mention is, at least in my class, there weren't any really bad shooters. I feel like I'm an average shooter but in reality compared to the average shooter I'm much better, but here I was just one of the guys. I was among all the other guys like myself that have trained hard on their own for a few years or more and came here to sharpen their skills. We were all that "go-to" guy among their friends that everyone comes to for gun related questions.
The instructors kept it humorous when they could. They constantly took shots at one another over age, height, ethnicity etc.
Anyways, sorry it probably reads like rambling, because I am.
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Swell report there Ken. :word:
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Thx for the report Ken :thumbsUp:
Did folks hang together after the first day of shooting? Or did everyone just go off on their own? The reason I ask was I am interested in the folks who took the class like:
Why did they take the class
Who (make-up) are the folks who took the class
etc.
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Thx for the report Ken :thumbsUp:
Did folks hang together after the first day of shooting? Or did everyone just go off on their own? The reason I ask was I am interested in the folks who took the class like:
Why did they take the class
Who (make-up) are the folks who took the class
etc.
The class was made up of 2 doctors, 1 paramedic, 1 lifeguard, The host was a Cop in the area, 1 Iraq vet from Arizona and various other professions. I believe there were 22 students in total. After day one the instructors asked if anyone was interested in having dinner and I think 3 guys were. Personally I had a 3 hour drive through traffic from hell and needed to get home to sleep just to wake up and come right back in the morning, so I wasn't interested in dinner. The average age of the students was probably around 30. A couple guys were in their 50's, a couple in their 40's and the rest were all 30's and younger. Everyone was nice and there wasn't any division of social groups or anything. Everyone would talk to everyone.
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Thx Ken.
Just talking about myself mind you...I learn almost as much from the dinners then from the actual training. I also like adding new friends to my contact list. ;)
All good stuff.
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Well Ken, you've just countered a lot of the negative stuff I've read about TR. Maybe I won't automatically write them off after all.
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Ken
Thanks for the follow up report. Sounds like a great experience for you. It is good to hear that you had a positive experience with TR. This is why it is important to make our own judgements, not just base everything off of talk from the interweb. I may not take another TR class but that doesnt mean you or anyone else should not.
I am taking a VCQB class with Will Petty of 88 Tactical at the end of June in SLC. I will try to post a review following the class. It is my first class with Will.
Chris
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I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.
[url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url])
Looked at their website due to your link.
Seems like a good school from what they have in their curriculum.
Definitely not on the inexpensive side though.
As for myself I am looking to train at more diverse schools but its tough.
The real basic classes I feel I will not get my money's worth out of at all since I run myself thru basic combat rifle curriculum just about every 2-3 months and as a result am not interested in taking..
the classes that are interesting (Rifleman 2) I am not allowed to attend due to not having the prerequisite. :deadHorse:
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Ken:
Thank you for the well written class review! :dance:
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Check out 88 Tactical in Nebraska. They have built up and excellent facility. They have a wide range of various classes that may be of interest. I am doing a VCQB class with Will Petty of 88 Tactical in a couple of weeks out in Utah. Also take a look at Buck Doyle of Follow Through Consulting. His scoped carbine class is well beyond the typical Carbine 1 classes.
Edit/JMc: Here is a link to this training company (https://88tactical.com/).
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I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.
[url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url])
Looked at their website due to your link.
Seems like a good school from what they have in their curriculum.
Definitely not on the inexpensive side though.
As for myself I am looking to train at more diverse schools but its tough.
The real basic classes I feel I will not get my money's worth out of at all since I run myself thru basic combat rifle curriculum just about every 2-3 months and as a result am not interested in taking..
the classes that are interesting (Rifleman 2) I am not allowed to attend due to not having the prerequisite. :deadHorse:
Erick,
Due to your amount of training time I would think Valor Ridge would enroll you in Rifleman 2 if you call them....... ;)
Also check out Storm Mountain Training Center in WV.. An outstanding place to train, you will not be disappointed.
http://www.stormmountain.com/ (http://www.stormmountain.com/)
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I also hear good things about Valour Ridge. It is run by Reid Hendrics who used to work for James Jaeger. Valour Ridge is above Knoxville near the Kentucky boarder.
[url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.valorridge.com/[/url])
Looked at their website due to your link.
Seems like a good school from what they have in their curriculum.
Definitely not on the inexpensive side though.
As for myself I am looking to train at more diverse schools but its tough.
The real basic classes I feel I will not get my money's worth out of at all since I run myself thru basic combat rifle curriculum just about every 2-3 months and as a result am not interested in taking..
the classes that are interesting (Rifleman 2) I am not allowed to attend due to not having the prerequisite. :deadHorse:
Erick,
Due to your amount of training time I would think Valor Ridge would enroll you in Rifleman 2 if you call them....... ;)
Also check out Storm Mountain Training Center in WV.. An outstanding place to train, you will not be disappointed.
[url]http://www.stormmountain.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.stormmountain.com/[/url])
I admit I have not called them yet but their website (actually all thier websites) are really adamant about taking Rifle 1 as a prereq "no exceptions".
Tactical Response was even more extreme on thier website .."Unless you been an active Tier 1 operator in the last year" is what it says there :facepalm:
The search continues
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Those courses all look excellent. Problem is the rather large cost.
Appleseedinfo.org is a 2 day rifle course and generally costs less than $100 per person. I can almost guarantee you if you go to the class you will shoot your rifle better (military snipers excepted) when you finish than when you started.
I can guarantee you that you will get tips, tricks and things that help that you never thought of or learned elsewhere.
You will also learn things about the American Revolution that you never knew and should have been taught but never were.
Nemo
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Thinking of offering an opinion here. Yet not wanting to get flamed
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Come on, spit it out. I may disagree with your statements but I will defend your rights to say it.
Nemo
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Had to go look through the website first.
I am having a bit of trouble getting my head wrapped around people spending money on these types of courses.
Bear with me and I will come back to this subject at some point.
Need to think a bit on this more. With my past I have strong opinions on firearms training.
The basic fundamentals of pistol and rifle Marksmanship are paramount and much of the time not given the priority needed.
Like I said need to think a bit on it and the value of these courses as I see it.
Then again if people are happy with what they are buying, more power to them.
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appleseedinfo.org
2 day rifleman course.
Nemo
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appleseedinfo.org
2 day rifleman course.
Nemo
Ok I can see the value now.
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I'm glad you got a lot out of it, Ken, but I've seen some shit from TR that was just straight up fucking retarded before, so yeah, good with the bad I guess, but sounds like the course you took was all good, though.
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Just to address some comments... Personally I'm that guy who says "Bro I'm not paying $500 for your basic class because I already know all that shit"... And in a previous class, I was right and lost my money. On tactical response I took the gamble again. That gamble paid off. Did I already know most of the curriculum? Yes... but something about the experience reinforced my questionable knowledge. The most value I got was confidence in my knowledge. I stood before the guys that partly taught me over the internet, what I thought I knew and they put their hand on my shoulder after I performed a drill or stood still in a requested position and they said "looks good". That positive in person verification is not to be undervalued. You think in your head "man I bet if i was there they'd say I was already good to go" but until you get that in person proof positive, you don't attain the confidence associated with it. Now as stated, some things were new information as well. I went in knowing 90% of the curriculum and had 10% of the personal confidence in my abilities and knowledge of that curriculum. I came out with 100% in both categories.
I would like to believe that I'm a logical person that is capable of critical thought without any help. Only one single point from the entire class did not sit well with me. That point was, "Why can't I look at my holster when reholstering?". I asked this because, the theme of reholstering throughout the class was "RELUCTANTLY reholster". This means, when you know for a fucking fact that the gunfight is over, you can reholster. They cited the fact that it takes cops 10 minutes on a great day, to show up, so you have that long to safely reholster. However they told us to not look at the holster as we reholstered so we can keep our eyes out in the danger zone(my words). So if I am reluctantly reholstering, why the fuck can't I look and avoid the most common self induced injury of shooting yourself while reholstering? If I need my eyes out in the space, I can't yet reluctantly reholster. That is literally the only flaw I could find in the entire class curriculum.
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Ken, how do you know when the gunfight is over? Or when the next one begins?
When all of the bad guys in front of you are dead?
Not trying to be a know it all, just throwing something out there to think about.
Diversions are a common tactic.
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Ken, how do you know when the gunfight is over? Or when the next one begins?
When all of the bad guys in front of you are dead?
Not trying to be a know it all, just throwing something out there to think about.
Diversions are a common tactic.
I agree so we shouldn't be in any hurry to reholster. When we know all is clear, we can do so. If it's not safe to look at the holster in order to safely reinsert the gun, we shouldn't be attempting to do so at all. So in my worthless opinion, there's never a good reason to not look at the holster when reholstering your pistol.
I think you mean to say, you can never be sure when it's "Over". To that I would also agree but then ask you if you always walk around with your hand on your pistol in case a gunfight starts? Two gunfights a few minutes apart may as well be 10 days apart. At some point we must go back to living a normal life with a holstered gun. I think that time should come before the cops show up unless you still don't feel safe reholstering and looking at the holster because of a heightened potential for more gunfighting. To me it's simple, if you can't look at the holster, you shouldn't be reholstering. I bet you reholstered at your house and looked before. You were sure then that you were safe to do so without being shot. Whenever that level of safety returns to your conscience, you may reholster.
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If the situation is "safe" enough for you to reholster then it id safe enough to take the time to look......damn it is just a glance were talking about not a longing stare. Be safe and do it right. Why fiddle f#$% around with the holster....sounds like someone trying to bee a little too cool and high speed. "Reluctantly" holster...WTF. It either needs to be out or not. I cant agree with Ken's assessment more.
As always just because some instructor says something in a class doesnt mean it is gospel.....even if they are former pipe hitters. You need to work through the info and get what is best for you. Think about the instructors background and where their experience helped to formulate what they teach. What works in a combat zone (even by true tip of the spear guys) does not necessarily translate into your environment. Environment being one of the key factors in how we respond to threats. How we process info is paramount, it would be nice to see more "problem solving" classes that make you think and process and not just shooting classes.....that is what I generally look for in a class.
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Good comments gents.
Same thing with your primary.
I was always told to not look at your receiver when you run out of ammo. Boy O' boy that was a hard habit to break. Then one day I took a class taught by a Sergeant Reservist. He told us that it was ok to take a peak at your open receiver as it is a natural response. Heck you could have a jam and just think your mag is empty.
Instead of practicing on not looking, look and practice reloading swiftly to get back into the fight.
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Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO. Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.
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Yupper EJR, "Also, depending on the type of malfunction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again."
I have taken several rifle manipulation classes at MVT (Max Velocity Tactical). Two of the classes had "clearing jams" in the classes. :facepalm:
The students would gather about 50 yards down the hill off the shooting range while Max would jam our weapons in all possible ways known to man. On "GO" we would run the 50 yards to the range and have to figure out what type of jam he had orchestrated in our primaries, clear them and then send 2 rounds down range. He use to take great satisfaction in doing a bolt override with steel Wolf ammo in my weapon. They are the WORST to clear.
We would do this till he or the instructor had a good feeling that "we got it" and could clear our weapons in our sleep.
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Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO. Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.
Works great at the range but then again most of us aren't at the range after dark either.
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Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO. Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.
Works great at the range but then again most of us aren't at the range after dark either.
If its dark, you can't see, and you have no light, racking bolt, jamming any forward assist, and putting a fresh mag in there does nothing you better drop that mag and rack that bolt over and over again, cuz you've got a double feed. If that doesn't fix it you've got bigger issues that are going to take a second to figure out. You'll be dead in a gun fights before that happens. If you have a handgun, use that handgun to try to get to cover, reload the handgun, and try to get that primary up and running from cover. If its done, you're down to your secondary and you're probably dead anyway if the bad guys have rifles.
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Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO. Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.
Works great at the range but then again most of us aren't at the range after dark either.
If its dark, you can't see, and you have no light, racking bolt, jamming any forward assist, and putting a fresh mag in there does nothing you better drop that mag and rack that bolt over and over again, cuz you've got a double feed. If that doesn't fix it you've got bigger issues that are going to take a second to figure out. You'll be dead in a gun fights before that happens. If you have a handgun, use that handgun to try to get to cover, reload the handgun, and try to get that primary up and running from cover. If its done, you're down to your secondary and you're probably dead anyway if the bad guys have rifles.
So maybe we should train and build habits that work all the time rather than those that vary based on the time of day and our location. There we'll be, getting shot at, trying to find a light source to help us look at our receiver, because we're not thinking clearly now and we've trained to visually inspect our rifle when it stops working. The story about the dead cop with his empty revolver brass in his pocket comes to mind.
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A good friend and trainer always puts it this way...."if you are in a firefight and your primary stops working what is the cause?.....ran dry?, double feed?, bolt over ride?........WHO CARES, transition and get a gun into the fight!"
This was to point out that the remedy for a malfunction is totally environmentally driven. If you are in a fight and you spend valuable time fiddle f*&%$#@g with a rifle that is down then you could be screwed. If the environment gives it to you get to cover and get your primary squared away. If your "partner" in the gunfight is 300yds away this is obviously a different situation than if the aggressor is only 25 yds. Time and space at 300 allow a quick look (quick finger bang if its night, and hopefully you can use the dark to your advantage) to determine the cause of the lack of bang. If it is empty get a reload on....if it is a malfunction get it squared away...if it is catastrophic try to get separation from the engagement till you can properly fix or replace the primary. If you cant and all you have is your secondary then by all means fight with what you have.
If you have light damn it use the light to identify the problem....dont start fingering the ejection port to determine what the malfunction is just because you are "training in to work in any situation". By all means learn what it takes to diagnose and fix your rifle in low light or dark, but dont trap yourself to those methods. If your environment gives you the light use it, if it doesnt then do with what you have. We too often get caught up in the "always do it this way " trap.
Try to run your rifle/ handgun in actual training that stresses your weapon manipulation skills as much as possible...not just marksmanship and flat range work. If you can build stress (high heart rate, movement, varied difficult targets, proximity to other shooters, etc) then you are better off. When we train we always run drills/ situations with a non shooter observing and debriefing once the drill or run is done. It is amazing how what you often think you did and what you actually did can be two different things. We employ a dick stick (I credit Will Petty with this evil creation) when training to cause malfunctions mid drill. Get a high tempo drill like alphabet soup going and then throw in malfunctions being caused that you need to clear to complete the drill (both during the day and under nods) the you will find out how competent your weapon manipulations are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhmExgkP0E&t=10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhmExgkP0E&t=10s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQwjQJ7zfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQwjQJ7zfI)
These vids are around vehicles, but we use the same principle in Intermediate Carbine, Team tactics, CQB/Entry, and Low/No Light courses. Get training from some good competent trainers (vary trainers if possible so you dont get caught up in one "doctrine") then build on that by continuing to train as learn with others as much as possible. Continue to learn and develop and hopefully you will never need to use it. Keep training to failure...if you get it right more than twice in a row you are not working hard enough.
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A good friend and trainer always puts it this way...."if you are in a firefight and your primary stops working what is the cause?.....ran dry?, double feed?, bolt over ride?........WHO CARES, transition and get a gun into the fight!"
This was to point out that the remedy for a malfunction is totally environmentally driven. If you are in a fight and you spend valuable time fiddle f*&%$#@g with a rifle that is down then you could be screwed. If the environment gives it to you get to cover and get your primary squared away. If your "partner" in the gunfight is 300yds away this is obviously a different situation than if the aggressor is only 25 yds. Time and space at 300 allow a quick look (quick finger bang if its night, and hopefully you can use the dark to your advantage) to determine the cause of the lack of bang. If it is empty get a reload on....if it is a malfunction get it squared away...if it is catastrophic try to get separation from the engagement till you can properly fix or replace the primary. If you cant and all you have is your secondary then by all means fight with what you have.
If you have light damn it use the light to identify the problem....dont start fingering the ejection port to determine what the malfunction is just because you are "training in to work in any situation". By all means learn what it takes to diagnose and fix your rifle in low light or dark, but dont trap yourself to those methods. If your environment gives you the light use it, if it doesnt then do with what you have. We too often get caught up in the "always do it this way " trap.
Try to run your rifle/ handgun in actual training that stresses your weapon manipulation skills as much as possible...not just marksmanship and flat range work. If you can build stress (high heart rate, movement, varied difficult targets, proximity to other shooters, etc) then you are better off. When we train we always run drills/ situations with a non shooter observing and debriefing once the drill or run is done. It is amazing how what you often think you did and what you actually did can be two different things. We employ a dick stick (I credit Will Petty with this evil creation) when training to cause malfunctions mid drill. Get a high tempo drill like alphabet soup going and then throw in malfunctions being caused that you need to clear to complete the drill (both during the day and under nods) the you will find out how competent your weapon manipulations are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhmExgkP0E&t=10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhmExgkP0E&t=10s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQwjQJ7zfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQwjQJ7zfI)
These vids are around vehicles, but we use the same principle in Intermediate Carbine, Team tactics, CQB/Entry, and Low/No Light courses. Get training from some good competent trainers (vary trainers if possible so you dont get caught up in one "doctrine") then build on that by continuing to train as learn with others as much as possible. Continue to learn and develop and hopefully you will never need to use it. Keep training to failure...if you get it right more than twice in a row you are not working hard enough.
The stick induced malfunctions is great. As far as training to always do things one way, that's a misunderstanding. I think you should train to do things the way they'll work most of the time, and if that doesn't work, you'll be forced to try something else.
To train to look at a rifles receiver when it doesn't go bang, likely means looking at a receiver 99% of the time, for no reason, and then being thrown for a loop when you finally train or fight in low light where most bad shit happens and your brain demands that you see the receiver because that's always been step one for you.
For another example, I don't think we should train to clear every malfunction like it's a double feed. It'll work but it's not necessary. Keep training simple and based around the 99% of the time shit, and then add in the 1% shit as needed.
It would seem to me that you're more likely to get stuck looking for a flashlight when you don't need it, than not looking for one when you do need it.
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The stick induced malfunctions is great. As far as training to always do things one way, that's a misunderstanding. I think you should train to do things the way they'll work most of the time, and if that doesn't work, you'll be forced to try something else.
To train to look at a rifles receiver when it doesn't go bang, likely means looking at a receiver 99% of the time, for no reason, and then being thrown for a loop when you finally train or fight in low light where most bad shit happens and your brain demands that you see the receiver because that's always been step one for you.
For another example, I don't think we should train to clear every malfunction like it's a double feed. It'll work but it's not necessary. Keep training simple and based around the 99% of the time shit, and then add in the 1% shit as needed.
It would seem to me that you're more likely to get stuck looking for a flashlight when you don't need it, than not looking for one when you do need it.
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I go straight to my handgun for any failure to fire at aprox 25yds and in. If I have transitioned and am getting my rifle back up a quick glance is faster and more precise for identifying(confirming) an empty gun and speed reloading. If I see something off I go from there. I train and practice low light....we all should so that if that is what we are faced with it is something we can manage (without a flashlight). In dark I use my fingers to identify the problem. An empty gun needing reloading is quick, a jam/malfunction requires a little more time but is worth doing right :-).
I only meant that like you mentioned the officers with brass in their pockets, dont get caught up in any way. The fastest way to solve a problem is with the most information. If I have light then visual is a primary source, why give it up. Train for low light, be proficient, practice...but dont make that the only way to go.....why slow yourself/ limit the speed at which you can get then process the info to solve the problem. You can train all the time in the daylight for techniques that are better for low light/no light and if you never train in low/no light I can almost guarantee that those techniques will go to shit if the first time you try them in the dark is for "real". I have seen guys when streeses build (and have done it myself)repeatedly fail to clear a simple malfunction for lack of a simple glance at the receiver. If youve got it use it....but damn well be prepared for when you dont have it because thats when Murphy will guarantee when you have a problem.
In general I think I agree with what you are saying but may be looking at it somewhat from a different angle.
Chris
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The stick induced malfunctions is great.
How is the malfunction induced? Prevent full injection or ?
How does he get that to go. I think I would see the stick coming and try to get where it would not work.
Nemo
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The stick induced malfunctions is great.
How is the malfunction induced? Prevent full injection or ?
How does he get that to go. I think I would see the stick coming and try to get where it would not work.
Nemo
If you're watching your front sight, you probably won't notice the stick unless you're a lefty possibly. He seems to be creating a failure to eject malfunction most often. I'm sure it could cause all kinds of problems though.
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Ken
You are correct. When you are using you front sight or optic and identifying then addressing the target you dont even notice....until it is too late, Every now and then you will see the stick and try to avoid it, and it is funny to watch a guy try to run the drill while dancing with the stick. The stick works best when teamed with other stresses.
Most common malfunctions are fte just like you said , but it does cause other problems like periodic bolt over-rides. Also sometimes using the stick to drag on the BCG can cause the bolt to slow enough to cause the round to not chamber completely. Also you would be surprised to see how easy it is the hit the mag release and drop a mag on someone mid drill. When used with a pistol it can cause a FTE or stovepipe depending on if the ejection port is effected or the back of the slide.
The real dick move is when you just get finished clearing a malfunction, come up on target and only get off one round before having another malfunction induced.Then to get a few rounds off with handgun only to have a malfunction induced with it. It definitely gets the heart rate up and forces you to transition and work your gun till you can again clear and get the rifle up in the fight. It is all about problem solving....lots of tasks..one priority. The more guys involved in the drill the easier it is to sneak the stick in. You are paying attention to targets, your teammates, the noise, etc then bam out of what feels like nowhere a malfunction. It is the closest we have been able to get to organic malfunctions. Static, set up malfunctions are only good to a point.
Chris
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Sure seems and sounds like a stressful situation. And lots of fun, with some serious thrills.
Nemo