Tactical response

[EJR914]

Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO.  Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.

[JohnyMac]

Yupper EJR, "Also, depending on the type of malfunction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again."

I have taken several rifle manipulation classes at MVT (Max Velocity Tactical). Two of the classes had "clearing jams" in the classes. 

The students would gather about 50 yards down the hill off the shooting range while Max would jam our weapons in all possible ways known to man. On "GO" we would run the 50 yards to the range and have to figure out what type of jam he had orchestrated in our primaries, clear them and then send 2 rounds down range. He use to take great satisfaction in doing a bolt override with steel Wolf ammo in my weapon. They are the WORST to clear. 

We would do this till he or the instructor had a good feeling that "we got it" and could clear our weapons in our sleep.
 

[Kentactic]

Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO.  Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.

Works great at the range but then again most of us aren't at the range after dark either.

[EJR914]

Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO.  Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.

Works great at the range but then again most of us aren't at the range after dark either.

If its dark, you can't see, and you have no light, racking bolt, jamming any forward assist, and putting a fresh mag in there does nothing you better drop that mag and rack that bolt over and over again, cuz you've got a double feed.  If that doesn't fix it you've got bigger issues that are going to take a second to figure out.  You'll be dead in a gun fights before that happens.  If you have a handgun, use that handgun to try to get to cover, reload the handgun, and try to get that primary up and running from cover.  If its done, you're down to your secondary and you're probably dead anyway if the bad guys have rifles. 

[Kentactic]

Gotta check the primary open bolt to see what's going on, empty or malfuction, IMHO.  Also, depending on the type of malfuction, you will have to do different things to get your primary up again.

Works great at the range but then again most of us aren't at the range after dark either.

If its dark, you can't see, and you have no light, racking bolt, jamming any forward assist, and putting a fresh mag in there does nothing you better drop that mag and rack that bolt over and over again, cuz you've got a double feed.  If that doesn't fix it you've got bigger issues that are going to take a second to figure out.  You'll be dead in a gun fights before that happens.  If you have a handgun, use that handgun to try to get to cover, reload the handgun, and try to get that primary up and running from cover.  If its done, you're down to your secondary and you're probably dead anyway if the bad guys have rifles.

So maybe we should train and build habits that work all the time rather than those that vary based on the time of day and our location. There we'll be, getting shot at, trying to find a light source to help us look at our receiver, because we're not thinking clearly now and we've trained to visually inspect our rifle when it stops working. The story about the dead cop with his empty revolver brass in his pocket comes to mind.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[CJS06]

A good friend and trainer always puts it this way...."if you are in a firefight and your primary stops working what is the cause?.....ran dry?, double feed?, bolt over ride?........WHO CARES, transition and get a gun into the fight!" 

This was to point out that the remedy for a malfunction is totally environmentally driven. If you are in a fight and you spend valuable time fiddle f*&%$#@g with a rifle that is down then you could be screwed.  If the environment gives it to you get to cover and get your primary squared away.  If your "partner" in the gunfight is 300yds away this is obviously a different situation than if the aggressor is only 25 yds.  Time and space at 300 allow a quick look (quick finger bang if its night, and hopefully you can use the dark to your advantage) to determine the cause of the lack of bang.  If it is empty get a reload on....if it is a malfunction get it squared away...if it is catastrophic try to get separation from the engagement till you can properly fix or replace the primary.  If you cant and all you have is your secondary then by all means fight with what you have.

If you have light damn it use the light to identify the problem....dont start fingering the ejection port to determine what the malfunction is just because you are "training in to work in any situation".  By all means learn what it takes to diagnose and fix your rifle in low light or dark, but dont trap yourself to those methods. If your environment gives you the light use it, if it doesnt then do with what you have.  We too often get caught up in the "always do it this way " trap. 

Try to run your rifle/ handgun in actual training that stresses your weapon manipulation skills as much as possible...not just marksmanship and flat range work. If you can build stress (high heart rate, movement, varied difficult targets, proximity to other shooters, etc) then you are better off.  When we train we always run drills/ situations with a non shooter observing and debriefing once the drill or run is done. It is amazing how what you often think you did and what you actually did can be two different things. We employ a dick stick (I credit Will Petty with this evil creation) when training to cause malfunctions mid drill.  Get a high tempo drill like alphabet soup going and then throw in malfunctions being caused that you need to clear to complete the drill (both during the day and under nods) the you will find out how competent your weapon manipulations are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhmExgkP0E&t=10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQwjQJ7zfI

These vids are around vehicles, but we use the same principle in Intermediate Carbine, Team tactics, CQB/Entry, and Low/No Light courses. Get training from some good competent trainers (vary trainers if possible so you dont get caught up in one "doctrine")  then build on that by continuing to train as learn with others as much as possible.  Continue to learn and develop and hopefully you will never need to use it. Keep training to failure...if you get it right more than twice in a row you are not working hard enough.

[Kentactic]

A good friend and trainer always puts it this way...."if you are in a firefight and your primary stops working what is the cause?.....ran dry?, double feed?, bolt over ride?........WHO CARES, transition and get a gun into the fight!" 

This was to point out that the remedy for a malfunction is totally environmentally driven. If you are in a fight and you spend valuable time fiddle f*&%$#@g with a rifle that is down then you could be screwed.  If the environment gives it to you get to cover and get your primary squared away.  If your "partner" in the gunfight is 300yds away this is obviously a different situation than if the aggressor is only 25 yds.  Time and space at 300 allow a quick look (quick finger bang if its night, and hopefully you can use the dark to your advantage) to determine the cause of the lack of bang.  If it is empty get a reload on....if it is a malfunction get it squared away...if it is catastrophic try to get separation from the engagement till you can properly fix or replace the primary.  If you cant and all you have is your secondary then by all means fight with what you have.

If you have light damn it use the light to identify the problem....dont start fingering the ejection port to determine what the malfunction is just because you are "training in to work in any situation".  By all means learn what it takes to diagnose and fix your rifle in low light or dark, but dont trap yourself to those methods. If your environment gives you the light use it, if it doesnt then do with what you have.  We too often get caught up in the "always do it this way " trap. 

Try to run your rifle/ handgun in actual training that stresses your weapon manipulation skills as much as possible...not just marksmanship and flat range work. If you can build stress (high heart rate, movement, varied difficult targets, proximity to other shooters, etc) then you are better off.  When we train we always run drills/ situations with a non shooter observing and debriefing once the drill or run is done. It is amazing how what you often think you did and what you actually did can be two different things. We employ a dick stick (I credit Will Petty with this evil creation) when training to cause malfunctions mid drill.  Get a high tempo drill like alphabet soup going and then throw in malfunctions being caused that you need to clear to complete the drill (both during the day and under nods) the you will find out how competent your weapon manipulations are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhmExgkP0E&t=10s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQwjQJ7zfI

These vids are around vehicles, but we use the same principle in Intermediate Carbine, Team tactics, CQB/Entry, and Low/No Light courses. Get training from some good competent trainers (vary trainers if possible so you dont get caught up in one "doctrine")  then build on that by continuing to train as learn with others as much as possible.  Continue to learn and develop and hopefully you will never need to use it. Keep training to failure...if you get it right more than twice in a row you are not working hard enough.

The stick induced malfunctions is great. As far as training to always do things one way, that's a misunderstanding. I think you should train to do things the way they'll work most of the time, and if that doesn't work, you'll be forced to try something else.

To train to look at a rifles receiver when it doesn't go bang, likely means looking at a receiver 99% of the time, for no reason, and then being thrown for a loop when you finally train or fight in low light where most bad shit happens and your brain demands that you see the receiver because that's always been step one for you.

For another example, I don't think we should train to clear every malfunction like it's a double feed. It'll work but it's not necessary. Keep training simple and based around the 99% of the time shit, and then add in the 1% shit as needed.

It would seem to me that you're more likely to get stuck looking for a flashlight when you don't need it, than not looking for one when you do need it.

[CJS06]

[/quote]
The stick induced malfunctions is great. As far as training to always do things one way, that's a misunderstanding. I think you should train to do things the way they'll work most of the time, and if that doesn't work, you'll be forced to try something else.

To train to look at a rifles receiver when it doesn't go bang, likely means looking at a receiver 99% of the time, for no reason, and then being thrown for a loop when you finally train or fight in low light where most bad shit happens and your brain demands that you see the receiver because that's always been step one for you.

For another example, I don't think we should train to clear every malfunction like it's a double feed. It'll work but it's not necessary. Keep training simple and based around the 99% of the time shit, and then add in the 1% shit as needed.

It would seem to me that you're more likely to get stuck looking for a flashlight when you don't need it, than not looking for one when you do need it.
[/quote]

I go straight to my handgun for any failure to fire at aprox 25yds and in. If I have transitioned and am getting my rifle back up a quick glance is faster and more precise for identifying(confirming) an empty gun and speed reloading.  If I see something off I go from there.   I train and practice low light....we all should so that if that is what we are faced with it is something we can manage (without a flashlight).  In dark I use my fingers to identify the problem. An empty gun needing reloading is quick, a jam/malfunction requires a little more time but is worth doing right :-).

I only meant that like you mentioned the officers with brass in their pockets, dont get caught up in any way. The fastest way to solve a problem is with the most information. If I have light then visual is a primary source, why give it up.  Train for low light, be proficient, practice...but dont make that the only way to go.....why slow yourself/ limit the speed at which you can get then process the info to solve the problem. You can train all the time in the daylight for techniques that are better for low light/no light and if you never train in low/no light I can almost guarantee that those techniques will go to shit if the first time you try them in the dark is for "real".  I have seen guys when streeses build (and have done it myself)repeatedly fail to clear a simple malfunction for lack of a simple glance at the receiver.  If youve got it use it....but damn well be prepared for when you dont have it because thats when Murphy will guarantee when you have a problem.

In general I think I agree with what you are saying but may be looking at it somewhat from a different angle.

Chris

[Nemo]

The stick induced malfunctions is great.

How is the malfunction induced?  Prevent full injection or ?

How does he get that to go.  I think I would see the stick coming and try to get where it would not work.

Nemo

[Kentactic]

The stick induced malfunctions is great.

How is the malfunction induced?  Prevent full injection or ?

How does he get that to go.  I think I would see the stick coming and try to get where it would not work.

Nemo

If you're watching your front sight, you probably won't notice the stick unless you're a lefty possibly. He seems to be creating a failure to eject malfunction most often. I'm sure it could cause all kinds of problems though.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[CJS06]

Ken

You are correct. When you are using you front sight or optic and identifying then addressing the target you dont even notice....until it is too late, Every now and then you will see the stick and try to avoid it, and it is funny to watch a guy try to run the drill while dancing with the stick.  The stick works best when teamed with other stresses.

Most common malfunctions are fte just like you said , but it does cause other problems like periodic bolt over-rides. Also sometimes using the stick to drag on the BCG can cause the bolt to slow enough to cause the round to not chamber completely. Also you would be surprised to see how easy it is the hit the mag release and drop a mag on someone mid drill. When used with a pistol it can cause a FTE or stovepipe depending on if the ejection port is effected or the back of the slide.

The real dick move is when you just get finished clearing a malfunction, come up on target and only get off one round before having another malfunction induced.Then to get a few rounds off with handgun only to have a malfunction induced with it.  It definitely gets the heart rate up and forces you to transition and work your gun till you can again clear and get the rifle up in the fight. It is all about problem solving....lots of tasks..one priority.  The more guys involved in the drill the easier it is to sneak the stick in.  You are paying attention to targets, your teammates, the noise, etc then bam out of what feels like nowhere a malfunction. It is the closest we have been able to get to organic malfunctions. Static, set up malfunctions are only good to a point.

Chris

[Nemo]

Sure seems and sounds like a stressful situation.  And lots of fun, with some serious thrills.

Nemo