SP1- Silencers in "WROL"

[technique]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK1GvmMEbzQ&feature=feedu

Some of the benefits are:

-Maintaining communication with your buddies while firing.
-Use with NVGs. not that flash hiders are bad, but suppressors are a bit better.
-Maintaining your position unnoticed for longer. Being able to take long range shots without your position being pinpointed.
-Signature. Not just sound, but dust while firing prone, and again- flash.


Just a few quick perks...

Not many downsides besides the added length and the need of lubrication more frequently when running a suppressed gun.

Add any pros or cons you see fit.

[505th.NM.Militia]

technique, I was wondering how a silencer would perform when used on an AK-47?  The local NFA dealer has a really nice one ($700+ the tax) but I'm wondering:  How many rounds are in the lifetime of the silencer?  Do you have to use subsonic rounds?  Does using standard ammunition degrade or damage the silencer?  What's the sound profile like with standard/ sunsonic ammo?  Thanks sir, I've drooled over your tax stamps in Gun Porn, I appreciate if you have an knowledge with the silenced AK...   

[Dave_M]

technique, I was wondering how a silencer would perform when used on an AK-47?  The local NFA dealer has a really nice one ($700+ the tax) but I'm wondering:  How many rounds are in the lifetime of the silencer?  Do you have to use subsonic rounds?  Does using standard ammunition degrade or damage the silencer?  What's the sound profile like with standard/ sunsonic ammo?  Thanks sir, I've drooled over your tax stamps in Gun Porn, I appreciate if you have an knowledge with the silenced AK...   

Alright, before I respond to this thread I'm making a new one about the basics of suppressors...

[Dave_M]

Ok, I have some input.

While a single suppressed shot may not be distinguished from a car door slamming or something similar, many shots in quick succession, no matter how different they sound from gunfire, are often discerned as so from pretty much anyone with half a frontal lobe.

I say, 'it depends...'.  Yup, if that's not a non-committal answer, I don't know what is.

While I agree with the benefits in the OP, let's explore the negatives:
For Rifles
-A can is heavy and adds length. Any fullsize can will really really upset the balance of a, 'fullsize' (read: 14.5"+) when used offhand. If it's an SPR-ish gun, used on a bi-pod, well, six of one and a half-dozen of the other... on a 16" or 14.5" gun, no bueno. So, SBR's are better for cans. However, the shorter barrel means a reduced longevity of a can and the ballistics thereof. New(ish) reflexive cans mitigate this but they don't suppress as well.... they kinda, 'take the edge off', if you will.
-More lubricant needed, as posted about. This can really really be controlled by coatings (such as FZ, which I am a big fan of)
-Harder on parts due to increased back pressure through has system and barrel. This means just like it says: Parts won't last as long. Period.
-Shit in your face also due to increased back pressure. Very distracting (especially during FA use)

For Pistols

-Doesn't work with every setup. Cans that have LID's (google it) will do better but others require more testing for reliability
-Gas in the face still can be a problem with pistols
-Lack of holsters. Like seriously. I can't think of a possible, 'Tears of the Sun' moment, hence why there is no longer a suppressor carrier on my rig...

My main advice is the same given to ODA teams: either run it 100 percent of time or no percent of the time (outside of special application)

[technique]

When choosing a suppressor, take Dave_M?s thread into consideration. Buy the best you can afford. I am a suppressor collector of sorts, I buy from everywhere while still keeping  quality in mind. I own Gemtech, OPS Inc., Surefire and Thompson Machine suppressors. Aluminum, 300 series stainless and Titanium- I've got 'em.

Generally, a suppressor will outlast the host rifle. There are far too many variables there to give an accurate answer. I can say that I?ve seen suppressors roll over the multiple-hundreds of thousands mark.

You do not have to use subsonic ammunition. In most semi-autos they won?t even cycle the action. The AK47 is actually one of the few exceptions to that rule. The suppressor will do its job and dumb down the report of the shot. Once the bullet has exited the muzzle the at supersonic speeds it will have bullet flight noise, there is nothing the suppressor can do about this. The good news is, tracking back where the bullet was fired from is now a whole helluva lot harder, based on sound alone. The sonic crack will bounce off of every object between you and the target making it hard to distinguish the origin. I don't know if I've told you one of my many confused coyote stories or not.

Subsonic ammo does not have a sonic crack and is much-much quieter. I use EBR- Engle Ballistic Research ammunition. Using sub or super is fine on a suppressor. The suppressor will degrade over time. You are blasting the baffles with super-heated gas and un-burnt powder. It will take years and years. This is normal.

Gratuitous suppressed AK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhkax4LHHHU

[TheHossUSMC]

@ technique

So I will very soon be in the market for a 7.62 suppressor. I got to see a surefire FA762K in action on a remy 700 and mod 14. I really liked the can and flash hider combo and the ease of changing it back and forth. I am thinking that it would be bad ass to just put surefire Muzzle devices on all my AKs and just buy one can. The down side is that I think I saw the best price for the surefire can for around 1700-1800 plus the 100 dollar  muzzle devices is around 2100 plus the 200 tax and then two SBR builds i'm doing which is 2700. This is a little more that I really wanna spend on just getting the taxes and can done. If I could find a cheaper can that I could change easily then I would be interested in checking it out. Do you have any suggestions?

[special-k]

My 2 cents:   Only one set up comes to mind when I think of the best tool for  "quiet operation" in WROL ......  .45acp carbine or SBR with optics and a can.  But hey...that's just me!!!!

[Dave_M]

Due to both the incredibly open gas system and the lack of warranty support when steel cased ammo is used I never saw a point in suppressing an AK.

[technique]

@ technique

So I will very soon be in the market for a 7.62 suppressor. I got to see a surefire FA762K in action on a remy 700 and mod 14. I really liked the can and flash hider combo and the ease of changing it back and forth. I am thinking that it would be bad ass to just put surefire Muzzle devices on all my AKs and just buy one can. The down side is that I think I saw the best price for the surefire can for around 1700-1800 plus the 100 dollar  muzzle devices is around 2100 plus the 200 tax and then two SBR builds i'm doing which is 2700. This is a little more that I really wanna spend on just getting the taxes and can done. If I could find a cheaper can that I could change easily then I would be interested in checking it out. Do you have any suggestions?

The Surefire is an expensive suppressor. It's also a nice suppressor.
Are there other solutions? Yup. One of the reasons I'd say, in this case, to find another suppressor,
one that costs less, because you're specifically looking to suppress AKs.

Lets face it. Not all AKs are created equal.
With the sloppy tolerances in the platform, you might not be able to suppress all your AKs
without first having some work done. The biggest issue would be making sure the mount and the can
sit concentrically with your bore. If not you'll rip a 7.62 round right through your baffle stack.
Be careful and check everything before you pull that trigger. Many AKs don't have the tolerance to host
a suppressor without a re-thread.

There are plenty of QD type mount systems out there from a bunch of different companies.
YankeeHill might be an affordable option for you. YankeeHill, Gemtech, AAC, and Surefire are all QD.
Each mounting platform has its pros and cons.

Look into both the YankeeHill and Gemtech.
Hope that's helpful to you.

[TheHossUSMC]

@ technique

So I will very soon be in the market for a 7.62 suppressor. I got to see a surefire FA762K in action on a remy 700 and mod 14. I really liked the can and flash hider combo and the ease of changing it back and forth. I am thinking that it would be bad ass to just put surefire Muzzle devices on all my AKs and just buy one can. The down side is that I think I saw the best price for the surefire can for around 1700-1800 plus the 100 dollar  muzzle devices is around 2100 plus the 200 tax and then two SBR builds i'm doing which is 2700. This is a little more that I really wanna spend on just getting the taxes and can done. If I could find a cheaper can that I could change easily then I would be interested in checking it out. Do you have any suggestions?

The Surefire is an expensive suppressor. It's also a nice suppressor.
Are there other solutions? Yup. One of the reasons I'd say, in this case, to find another suppressor,
one that costs less, because you're specifically looking to suppress AKs.

Lets face it. Not all AKs are created equal.
With the sloppy tolerances in the platform, you might not be able to suppress all your AKs
without first having some work done. The biggest issue would be making sure the mount and the can
sit concentrically with your bore. If not you'll rip a 7.62 round right through your baffle stack.
Be careful and check everything before you pull that trigger. Many AKs don't have the tolerance to host
a suppressor without a re-thread.

There are plenty of QD type mount systems out there from a bunch of different companies.
YankeeHill might be an affordable option for you. YankeeHill, Gemtech, AAC, and Surefire are all QD.
Each mounting platform has its pros and cons.

Look into both the YankeeHill and Gemtech.
Hope that's helpful to you.

Kinda, I am aware of everything you said here. I guess I was looking more for specific models. I am not looking for you to do my research for here, I just thought you might already know, or have some info on your own setup.

[technique]

My set up is a Gemtech Quicksand. This is a Titanium suppressor, and is on the higher end of the price scale.
An identical model in Stainless is available, it's called the HVT QD. It costs a lot less but is significantly heavier.

The mount is a 14x1 Metric Bi-lock specific for the AK, made by Gemtech. It is QD. A push and a 1/4 turn and it's locked on in place.

[TheHossUSMC]

Sweet thanks.

[EJR914]

I've always heard that the point of a suppressor is not to make it completely silent, like the .45 carbines, but just to change the sound from the report enough, that most people are just going to think that the sound is something other than a gun shot. 

[rah45]

I've always heard that the point of a suppressor is not to make it completely silent, like the .45 carbines, but just to change the sound from the report enough, that most people are just going to think that the sound is something other than a gun shot.

That's what I always thought!

[Dave_M]

I've always heard that the point of a suppressor is not to make it completely silent, like the .45 carbines, but just to change the sound from the report enough, that most people are just going to think that the sound is something other than a gun shot.

All of that depends on the manufacturer's intentions. There are several motivations behind suppressor design. For example, the Surefire Micro was developed specifically to hide as much flash as possible with sound reduction being a secondary concern. Other cans, like the bigassed Ciener cans of the 80's (IIRC his .308 can is something like 34" long), are more about sound suppression.

The Israelis initially made these sweet babies as a, 'LTL' option to break up riots. They were quickly snatched up by their SF units to be used as very quiet hush-puppies. So, sound was the biggest consideration:


Sionics cans for Mac's and other subguns, whatever the intention was originally, serve more to control the firearm (I own one, they suck and take training to control)



Many .50BMG cans were meant more to reduce environmental signature. IE, turning this:

(imagine that when combined with the moon-dust sand of Iraq)

into this:


As previously mentioned, many reflexive cans are meant to reduce the concussion and blast of an SBR into something more bearable to teammates.


So yeah, I can't tell you if some suppressors were simply meant to mask the sound into something else as they have been made for many reasons.

In very general terms, here's a diagram concerning the directional detection of someone using a suppressor:


In regards to the WROL I would choose a full-size can that is pretty good at all of the above with too much specification in a single area. I would rather have a, 'does everything OK' can over a, 'works awesome in XYZ category but sucks in ABC'.

-

[RONSERESURPLUS]

Hello all

RON L here


I've used Supressors in a Military Role and Mission in many cases and I see it as one of those things that after the Crash, would be viable, I've sued them more in 22LR but thise use on 9MM and 45ACP has been part of my history as wel! All worked well and all were night mission items! I see these as a great item to have and while I've no objection to getting one prior to all the mess, Building one afterwards would be a lot less risky and part of my plan!

RON

[technique]

Just got this little 9mm can today, 

[Dave_M]

Just got this little 9mm can today, 

I've seen tiny 9mm cans (the DeGroat 9mm comes to mind) but they were combination wipe/monocore cans. I was thoroughly unimpressed with their performance. How's the sound reduction? What's the design?

ETA: Just looked it up, it's a combo monocore/wipe like the DeGroat. I'm sure you already know this but the 147gr truncated cone 9mm's can drastically reduce the longevity of the wipe (I think I killed a DeGroat wipe in under one magazine of 147gr). Without the wipes, I found it to be just as loud as unsuppressed (to my un-calibrated ear).

while I've no objection to getting one prior to all the mess, Building one afterwards would be a lot less risky and part of my plan!

Anything the average person could produce in their garage or basement (not saying you're among the average) will be the equivalent of a 1960's tech can. IE: Not very good nor long-lasting.

[technique]

Oh yeah, it's for use with a ablative of some type, I use water or wire pull gel. This particular can actually beat the DeGroat in several independent tests. It's a monocore design and you have the option of a urethane wipe(s) for carry, so the media won't drip out. It sounds fine without it though, obviously when wet. The urethane wipe(s) are replaceable.

I didn't get to shoot it today and I plan on doing a full review, I just have an early AM flight and a million things to do before then. 
I did hear this can, the .45 version and the .380 version (sold exclusively via Diamondback Arms(?), sold as a package with a carry gun) at a NFAtalk.org shoot in INDY and my jaw nearly hit the floor when I heard the .380. I knew I had to have one for my collection.



PS, I have an old school Aurora, all wipe can (Jack Bauer edition), and I've seen the older "pill bottle" suppressor. Both are pretty cool.

[Dave_M]

This particular can actually beat the DeGroat in several independent tests.

Oh I'm not saying the DeGroat was the pinnacle of monocore/wipe hybrid design, just saying it's the one that turned me off to them.

[special-k]

Just got this little 9mm can today, 

BE ADVISED:  It's a tequila night for me.

So......How much did you pay for the little black dildo?  I swear, I'm not judging.  Ya' know, don't ask don't tell. 

[technique]

Thought it resembled a tampon myself. Got it in a trade with the folks at Thompson machine.

[special-k]

Thought it resembled a tampon myself. Got it in a trade with the folks at Thompson machine.

Damn....guess I got "smited" for typing "dildo."  Well, in that case.....dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo, dildo and dildo infinity.......

[technique]

Pics, as requested...
I still haven't shot it yet. maybe tomorrow if I'm lucky.







Interesting, is it not? And people wonder why I'm such a silencer nerd.

[Colombo]

Thanks for the pics, if you have time for a few questions, is that a seam or channel on the centerline inside the baffle? Any canting of the bullet passages or straight thru? mouse holes? Just shut up and buy my own?