Unchained Preppers
General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: sauerofkraut on December 27, 2011, 01:02:57 PM
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When I first got into prepping three years ago I knew a good rifle was a important part of preping. At first I went with the ruger mini14 as my rifle. Its is a good solid rifle that I ended up changing out for an AKM platform. As a prepper the AKM platform fit my ideas as a good rifle: durable operating system, cheap durable magazines($6-10ea), 7.62x39($175-210 per 1000rds), and cheap cost of rifle($400 and up). Thinking I had a good idea on this platform I did what preppers do I bought a good amount of supplies for the AKM platform.
Then other ideas started to get in my head most important being part of a militia. Being part of a group started to get me to think of the AKM's down sides as a USA militia rifle.
appearance of the rifle: The image I had was a group of people walking over a hill dressed BDUs carring a AKM rifles would make me think that we are being invaded by a foreign military force(during WROL). If that group of people walking over the hill where carring a rifle platform that was similiar to your countries, I think you would have less of a chance of having shots sent your way. I also think that having having the rifle as the military would be helpful in the fact if the army calls up the milita you do not need to haul different ammo then what they use.
Caliber: the 7.62x39 is an effective cartridge out to 200-300 meters. It is limited by the fact that it is a stubby bullet that does not have a good ballistic coefficient that makes it less accurate then other calibers(.308, 5.56, 5.45). This makes it harder to make hits at longer ranges because you have to compensate more for the bullet drop. It is cheap at $175-210 for 1000rds, steel cased, and from mother Russia. The loose part of the chain is the fact that the USA gov. can put a stop to that ammo supply like they did to china in the 90s. Yes there are American makers of 7.62x39 put then the price advantage disappears. That lead me to the 5.56. It is a flater flying bullet means its easier to hit at farther ranges(I live in western Kansas few trees and fewer hills to hide behind). The 5.56 has been called a less then a man stopper. This is do to a few reasons. The current issue M855 62gr fmj with steel perpetrator tip round has been shown to not break up in fleshy targets as well as the older M193 55gr fmj (the europeans thought it to "inhumane"). Due to this the military is getting better results with newer rounds. The Mk 262 77gr otm round is a longer range round that is effective out to 700meters(kansas country) and the M855A1 62gr copper jacket is been proven to be more effective then the older M855( plus its supposed to be more "green", go treehugger militia). Thats just the ammo that the US military is playing with. Their are more loadings in the commercial market. The price for the USA made ammo is going to be higher then the russian made product. The price can be lowered by reloading your own rounds(which I'm planning to do). The surplus market is better for the 5.56 because it is widely used round the world compared to the 7.62x39 and the 5.45. The 5.56 is not the end all rifle cartidge of the world, but it will do the job.
Magazines:The magazines I stored for the AKM were steel surplus from eastern europe. They are durable, cheap, and heavy. They weigh more then ar-15 magazines. Weights is more of a concern to me then it was because militia need to be able to move more then one defending ones home. I loader 6 AKM magazines and put them in my load barring vest And compared that with 6 AR Pmags loaded and found I was less winded after walking though pastures. I could use polymer mags for the AKM but most of the polymer mags have a polymer rear locking tabs that are not as strong as the steel that bothers my. There is one polymer AKM mag that has a steel locking tab(bulgarian circle-10) that are still weigh more then AR mags and they cost $30 each. The best AR mags are Magpul Pmags from my research for around $15 just down the street I can stock up and stay stocked up buying over time.
Durablity: Yes the AKM is what other rifles are measured against for durablity and for good reason. Thats said If the m16 is still a jamomatic like it was when it came out in vietnam it would not be with us. A lot of the jamming(if not all) can be relieved by cleaning and lubing. This comes from marines who used the rifle in Iraq(gunfightercast episode 1). I have heard that some of the nickel plated BCG needed less lube and are easier to clean, 2,000round count without lube or cleaning(google fail zero BCG)
Is the AR-15 the perfect rifle No. But it might be the best option for the militia men in the USA.
P.S. I may add to this list with more parts
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appearance of the rifle: The image I had was a group of people walking over a hill dressed BDUs carring a AKM rifles would make me think that we are being invaded by a foreign military force(during WROL). If that group of people walking over the hill where carring a rifle platform that was similiar to your countries, I think you would have less of a chance of having shots sent your way.
No, Someone comes over my hill in BDU's with an AR 15 I'm thinking government hit squad.
Someone comes over my hill in BDU's with an AK I'm thinking ( No way it's a government hit squad, he/she could be a fellow prepper and friend )
Caliber: the 7.62x39 is an effective cartridge out to 200-300 meters. It is limited by the fact that it is a stubby bullet that does not have a good ballistic coefficient that makes it less accurate then other calibers(.308, 5.56, 5.45). This makes it harder to make hits at longer ranges because you have to compensate more for the bullet drop. It is cheap at $175-210 for 1000rds, steel cased, and from mother Russia. The loose part of the chain is the fact that the USA gov. can put a stop to that ammo supply like they did to china in the 90s
1. I have personally lost a friend to a 500 yard shot from an AK-47 do not preach that it cannot be done. It was
2. there is American made ammo, & there is A LOT of rounds already here. Find them
Good post just my opinion on some matters. [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
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No, Someone comes over my hill in BDU's with an AR 15 I'm thinking government hit squad.
Someone comes over my hill in BDU's with an AK I'm thinking ( No way it's a government hit squad, he/she could be a fellow prepper and friend )
That's actually a really good point. That sucks because a lot of us have AR's, but it's still a good point.
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I think we should discuss this on blog tv.
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I think we should discuss this on blog tv.
Roger that.
I'll start if you don't mind. I got a good example I can show off.
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55 gr. 5.56 soft points do a nice job on a 8" gong about 100 yards distance. Exit holes are biger on the gong then the FMJ onces.
If you reload, think about soft points.
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Just ordered a reloading press didn't think of soft points
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Hello all
RON L here
I have seen groups use the AR, AK or Even the M-1 Carbie as a weapon, that did not change how they acted or how they were viewed! The actions of the group and it's activities mean far more than the weapons it carries? I see where the OP was coming from but in my opinion it's off base! Pleanty of groups will use Comm Block weapons and that will not be a factor! With reloading stocks of ammo and parts what ever ya pick will serve your needs, don't fall for the hype or a kneejerk reaction from folks! Just my opinion but one formed with decades of active duty and pleanty of shots fired!
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I am just going to say that the AR series is a lot more reliable than people will give it credit for (the weak spot is the mags) and the AK is a lot more accurate than anyone would dare give it credit for. I have seen 505th pull some serious one shot wonders with his draco.
As to the 'Armed man' issue, you are going to be running a very real risk if naked aggression is playing out in America simply by carring a rifle. On the flipside you will be risking a lot by not carring one too. Doesn't matter the make or model I got a serious gun control issue, if there is a gun around I want to be in control of it.
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all very good points man, and I feel your dead on right?
RON
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I use the m855 bullet in a 5.56 loading. I'm more worried about someone wearing body armor instead of effectiveness.
I do keep 2 mags with .223 55 gn bullets. When i advance my preps further i'll get some 5.56 .55gn to replace the .223.
getting hit with a 5.56 will take you out of the fight at least for a few minutes and then you'll only be 50%.
chances are they will be far enough away from you not to be a threat after hit once, if not they are well in spray and pray range.
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I use the m855 bullet in a 5.56 loading. I'm more worried about someone wearing body armor instead of effectiveness.
I do keep 2 mags with .223 55 gn bullets. When i advance my preps further i'll get some 5.56 .55gn to replace the .223.
getting hit with a 5.56 will take you out of the fight at least for a few minutes and then you'll only be 50%.
chances are they will be far enough away from you not to be a threat after hit once, if not they are well in spray and pray range.
yeah i have mostly 55gr right now but i just got a good bit of the m855, im going to stock that primarily now.
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I just ordered reloading equipment. I thibk I'm going for something in 62gr and 75 gr.
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I am not an expert by any means however when you go much over 62 gr you will loose accuracy in the 300+ yard range unless you have a faster twist in your barrel.
I think most M16 barrels have 1:12 twist. Many, not all AR 15 barrels are in the 1:9 range. Just food for thought.
Now my .54 cal flint lock has a 1:66 barrel but does not load as fast as an AR. :))
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Now my .54 cal flint lock has a 1:66 barrel but does not load as fast as an AR. :))
LOL! JMc the trick with that must be to wait for the zombies to line up.
Thinking of which, Zombieland was on last night.
Zombieland-Thank God for rednecks!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxzfqqd3rbg#)
Thank God For Rednecks!
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lmao sledge that awesome, and yea i saw zombieland for my first time last night. I WANT A TWINKIE!
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[URL=http://www.smileyvault.co
Yup Sledge....Just like the Germans did in the Warsaw Getto. The challange is to keep them in line. :))
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All I can say is, No matter what rifle the group uses, everybody needs to use that rifle.
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i have to say i disagree on that one spirit, its good to be able to interchange but lets say you all have ak's and you are being shot at by a guy that has for example a 7mm from 700 yards, you may want to have a couple guys carrying weapons that are ment for dispatching threats at long ranges, sort of like the military.
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Wouldn't it be a good idea to have one dedicated marksman per 4-6 guys in your squad? Enough guys to go forward and engage, with the marksman many yards behind, able to flank and get a good shooting position. Thoughts?
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agreed, i think its a good idea to have a guardian angel.
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My main concern with that would be the marksman having no one near him to support him. 40 yards might as well be 40 miles in some engagements.
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one of the military guys is going to have to handle this question for sure
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Not military but here's 2 cents for free... Don't split your designated marksman off all by his self. He should have an observer/close protection buddy with him specifically for defense against flanking or ambush. Arm your support guy with a carbine or even a sbr, something fast on target including the sighting system. Smoke and cs are nice to have handy too (exit stage left for you older guys). I have on the workbench a bastardized hk/cetme being built as a 12" barreled pistol for both fast close in, penetration, and volume of fire purposes (still have to bend the flat, too many projects). It is not a sbr at this point and I don't have a stock for it so there's no legal question of constructive possession at this point under the rule of law. Do I know someone who just happens to have a spare stock? Maybe... Your designated marksman will have to move to keep up with his unit and the second man makes overwatch possible for those movements don't underestimate its importance as well as more eyes and ears equals more situational awareness.
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Left out the tunnel vision problem with a designated marksman, it's real easy to get lost in that scope. The extra eyes scanning the immediate area are a lifesaver. Also very important is familiarity with your partner, you should train enough to be aware of what they are doing or will do. Not an easy or fast set of skills to obtain but well worth it if possible.
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Thanks for the reply, Colombo. I know that in the Marine Corps (my brother's opinion, at least), there is usually a dedicated sniper/marksman available for each platoon (right?). However, we won't have a platoon...so what would be a goodly number of guys to merit someone being a dedicated marksman such as that? I mean, I wouldn't think it a good idea for a group of 4 or 5 to have two of their number off of the front line....
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Tight groups are probably good for kicking doors or known isolated resistance but open formation has a better unit survivability (concentration of fire suffers). One solid burst or sudden volley or pipe bomb will waste or break a line or group fast. A couple of loose teams even just by twos increases your opportunity for enfilade fire on target and keeps the enemy defending from more than one direction. Communication becomes trickier (know your hand signals for when your ears are ringing or there's some distance) and target id becomes critical though. Steep learning curve I wouldn't want to jump right into with unknown people though. In regard to the original post I don't think the weapons chosen will make that much of a difference but it could be nice to be able to toss a buddy a mag fast if he's out. I always have had the opinion that when you think you have enough ammo your almost there.
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screw that im planning on everyone having 14.5" ars and were gona do cavalry charges with our 10 speeds. hit and run.
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I thought the mosin nagant was the weapon of choice for the
Militia?
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I think we have picked up a troll.
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I think we have picked up a troll.
There are people and groups out there buying fucking crates of these rifles.......
How is that being a troll?...... >:(
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I think we have picked up a troll.
There are people and groups out there buying fucking crates of these rifles.......
How is that being a troll?...... >:(
I wouldn't mind having a case of them. And you're right. There are people buying them by the case. But right now there are other preps I need to make up ground on.
Edit: I did read an article some time back where the guy was saying forget the AR's and Ak's and go with mosin nagants or a similar rifle. Most people don't unless they are forced into it because of lack of funds. I have heard of some who are using them as a sniper rifle.
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I think we have picked up a troll.
There are people and groups out there buying fucking crates of these rifles.......
How is that being a troll?...... >:(
Welcome Hondokov. That's a cute little mad face you have there. :)
Let the guys get a little time to know you.
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he was on lnl i believe.
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I think we have picked up a troll.
There are people and groups out there buying fucking crates of these rifles.......
How is that being a troll?...... >:(
Welcome Hondokov. That's a cute little mad face you have there. :)
Let the guys get a little time to know you.
Hi Sledge,
You and most of the others guys already know me.
Hope all is well. ;)
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LOL! Ok. Sorry, I don't remember the name. I am getting a little old now though so that's not unusual for me. As long as I can remember which end the food goes in and which end it comes out of and don't get them mixed up I'll be fine. Glad you found the site over here. :)
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I think we have picked up a troll.
There are people and groups out there buying fucking crates of these rifles.......
How is that being a troll?...... >:(
I thought the mosin nagant was the weapon of choice for the
Militia?
A little more careful wording and avoiding catchall stereotyping will keep down the kneejerk responses as well as smartass responses like mine here, so far all intended in fun from my end though...
Don't know bout no milita purchases but I've got an order for a truckload of M4s and 240Gs going out to the league of womens voters in bocca ratton and the knights of columbus are on hold bitching about a delay in there order for body armor and M2s. I sure hope peta got there order of claymores yesterday or I'll be hearing from them >:D
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I think we have picked up a troll.
There are people and groups out there buying fucking crates of these rifles.......
How is that being a troll?...... >:(
I thought the mosin nagant was the weapon of choice for the
Militia?
A little more careful wording and avoiding catchall stereotyping will keep down the kneejerk responses as well as smartass responses like mine here, so far all intended in fun from my end though...
Don't know bout no milita purchases but I've got an order for a truckload of M4s and 240Gs going out to the league of womens voters in bocca ratton and the knights of columbus are on hold bitching about a delay in there order for body armor and M2s. I sure hope peta got there order of claymores yesterday or I'll be hearing from them >:D
LOL! That's funny Colombo. At least it will be until you hear a knock, knock, knock on the door. Those Jehovah Witnesses ( you know who I mean) don't ever seem to have a sense of humor. They'll probably want to use you for an inside informant on those ladies and knights. I hear they've been after them for years. :)
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I ain't worried Sledge, the FFA and 4H got my perimeter, and I can always call in for support from MADD those bitches kick ass.
Is there any group I haven't offended yet? >:D
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Sauer of Kraut I salute your rational thinking, critical reasoning, and pragmatism. Pick what is right for you (personally) and your operating terrain. It sounds like you already have. I would like to add (I've made many business trips to Witchita and its environs) a scoped bolt-action to add some serious distance. After seeing Kansas terrain first hand I think the .308, 30-'06, or 7.62 x 54r don't have enough thrust for the distance you may need to cover. If I lived in Kansas I would opt for .338 Lapua, even if I had to get a temporary part-time job to afford one and the ammo. Salut!
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It's been my experience working with both large and small numbers of soldiers that a designated marksman can and will be a life saving asset. As for the strategic and tactical deployment of such assets id have to say the battle buddy system works wonders, a DM will have one man with him at all times in almost every unit I've come in contact with since I can lead to tunnel vision looking down a scope, (it also helps if the DM has a secondary weapon for close range). As for the number of people needed to utilize a sharpshooter teams of three or four are the most common however more is always better (in my opinion).
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one more thing that is very important if you are planning on running a DM 'section' in your group you are going to need coms with said DM section. something to think about.