Unchained Preppers
General Category => Security & Survival => Topic started by: Kobalt on August 29, 2011, 10:11:23 AM
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What do you guys think about them?
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I think they serve a purpose. If that purpose is well within your needs then go for it.
As for me, I don't see a need.
I can do better with an " assault " cartridge.
Honestly if I where going to get a pistol Caliber Carbine it would be something like a 357 rifle, or a 44 magnum. Only because of ammo availability & the fact that I have a firearm in that caliber already. The fact that it does this or that to velocity is pretty irrelevant to me. It may seem stubborn, but really what can I do with 44 magnum rifle that I cant do with a Draco Pistol?
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$300 bucks for a draco, Is better than $1500 for a Hk usc. When I can Ill try to get a draco :)
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You could always go with those short-barrled .45 LC lever guns from Puma and Henry. They are classified as pistols but have enough of the shoulder stock left you could fire it from a stable position. Most pistol carbines are 'civillianized' submachine guns, and get played down by the majority of gun owners. Although, I've been very tempted by the prospects of an Uzi....
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I believe Pistol caliber carbines have a place. i think they are great when you are working for inside security. one of the guys in my team has a CX4 Storm in 9mm. its a very nice rifle. i dig it alot. we where shooting out at 100 yards with winchester white box and it was killing paper plates.
if you are gonna be doing base security or patrols in an suburban area it would be very ideal IMHO. i think that and a flashlight attachment would make a very good combo.
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I believe Pistol caliber carbines have a place. i think they are great when you are working for inside security. one of the guys in my team has a CX4 Storm in 9mm. its a very nice rifle. i dig it alot. we where shooting out at 100 yards with winchester white box and it was killing paper plates.
if you are gonna be doing base security or patrols in an suburban area it would be very ideal IMHO. i think that and a flashlight attachment would make a very good combo.
I would still prefer max firepower.
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I believe Pistol caliber carbines have a place. i think they are great when you are working for inside security. one of the guys in my team has a CX4 Storm in 9mm. its a very nice rifle. i dig it alot. we where shooting out at 100 yards with winchester white box and it was killing paper plates.
if you are gonna be doing base security or patrols in an suburban area it would be very ideal IMHO. i think that and a flashlight attachment would make a very good combo.
I would still prefer max firepower.
you and me both but if you dont want to hit little kids if shit gets real inside your base. then id go with the lower powered stuff. i think they have a purpose also they are good for kids and smal frame women
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If your doing a defensive patrol around your base & your worried about hitting kids.
1. You should be using a shotgun, with a rifle slung.
2. Check your backdrop and try not to shoot into your base.
As for small frame women. Its Irrelevant. She was 4 feet 11 Inches tall.
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt331/juba811/bonnie_and_clyde.jpg)
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very true and yu make good points but my mind goes to be what most will have... in my team, shotguns are not used as much...its all in what the user wants . but for the record i agree with reaver, hench the reason i do not own a Pistol caliber carbine and do own a shotgun ;)
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very true and you make good points but my mind goes to be what most will have... in my team, shotguns are not used as much...its all in what the user wants . but for the record i agree with reaver, hench the reason i do not own a Pistol caliber carbine and do own a shotgun ;)
Yeah, different strokes for different folks.
I mean, I wouldn't mind having a couple. I love firearms as my collection says. Now Does that mean I'm going to bring every one of my guns. No absolutely not. Would I like to sure, but I can't. So I take what I know works, and what I've trained with.
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very true and you make good points but my mind goes to be what most will have... in my team, shotguns are not used as much...its all in what the user wants . but for the record i agree with reaver, hench the reason i do not own a Pistol caliber carbine and do own a shotgun ;)
Yeah, different strokes for different folks.
I mean, I wouldn't mind having a couple. I love firearms as my collection says. Now Does that mean I'm going to bring every one of my guns. No absolutely not. Would I like to sure, but I can't. So I take what I know works, and what I've trained with.
this is why i own three guns. i run3 gun matchs and train with three guns. i would rather have few guns and lots of training on them , then lots of guns and little training on all of them. its just my mind set and i do not knock people hat have tons of firearms. ...
i just like knowing that if i have one of my firearms in my hand , i know what i can do with it ,i can do it faster then the other that may not know his weapon as well and be able to change over to anther weapon that i will have on my person to handle another threat or challenge.
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I don't mind having a ton of firearms. Most people see my collection and there like... " whoa "
But Me I just LOVE GUNS all of them.
But Like I said, I have my guns.
then I have MY guns. IE the ones that I train with. Granted I do a little with each, but most of my Training goes into the FN-FAL the 870 and the two sidearms of my choice.
Everything else. Just sits there and looks pretty, and is fun to shoot occasionally.
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I honestly think getting a Ruger pc 40 wpould be sick. I would like it as a woodsgun or CQB weapon. The 40 cal. is awesome through a long barrel.
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Hello all RON L here
I find myself in agreent with many here that think that Pistol calibers work well in a Carbine as well? I like the Idea of a Pair up of weapons, be it a Revolver and Lever action, or a Semi auto Pistol and a Carbine in say 9MM or 45 Caliber? I see it as a pistol caliber has lesser range and some effectiveness, how ever work well in some short to medium range roles! As in all thingsl to it's ability? I pair up a M-95 Classic (Browning High Power Clone and a Sten 9MM Semi auto, they work well, but I know some that Like the Glock and Kel-Teck Como's that use the same mag, they offer a Great value and option? Pays to keep an open mind!!
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Hello all RON L here
I find myself in agreent with many here that think that Pistol calibers work well in a Carbine as well? I like the Idea of a Pair up of weapons, be it a Revolver and Lever action, or a Semi auto Pistol and a Carbine in say 9MM or 45 Caliber? I see it as a pistol caliber has lesser range and some effectiveness, how ever work well in some short to medium range roles! As in all thingsl to it's ability? I pair up a M-95 Classic (Browning High Power Clone and a Sten 9MM Semi auto, they work well, but I know some that Like the Glock and Kel-Teck Como's that use the same mag, they offer a Great value and option? Pays to keep an open mind!!
in the words of Kentactic : Simplicity Is Ideal. :)
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I'm a fan of getting ALL the velocity and performance out of a given caliber - carbines shine at this. A 9mm +p+ out of a carbine-length barrel is a real threat at 200 yards, and ballistics tables back that up. I highly recommend them for beginners or the chicks of your household. I wouldn't feel undergunned with one...
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I don't know, man.
I think, for example, an AR15 chambered in 9mm has the same felt recoil as a 5.56 or 5.45. Mostly
because it's a blow back design. Even worse, honestly, with some Egyptian 9mm machinegun ammo
(corrosive) kinda on the hot side.
Ya know, even the MP5 is harsh for the size of the cartridge. But then again, what HKs don't.
What kinda carbine were you shooting?
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beretta cx4 carbine is 30"
my ar15 is 32"
nuff said
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I'm a fan of getting ALL the velocity and performance out of a given caliber - carbines shine at this. A 9mm +p+ out of a carbine-length barrel is a real threat at 200 yards, and ballistics tables back that up. I highly recommend them for beginners or the chicks of your household. I wouldn't feel undergunned with one...
I read something the other day went something like this.
" though 9mm and 40 smith may expand, it is impossible for a 45 to shrink "
Same concept.
But thinking Rifle cartridge compared to pistol cartridge.
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Way down the WROL road I could see having a revolver and a levergun in the same caliber, you'll be reloading staight cases with homemade powder, hardcast bullets on remanufactered primers so having a closed bolt will help you get more power out of the round and revolvers work.
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Yeah, .45's don't shrink. Whaddya think my secondary is? Hello McFly!
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Way down the WROL road I could see having a revolver and a levergun in the same caliber, you'll be reloading staight cases with homemade powder, hardcast bullets on remanufactered primers so having a closed bolt will help you get more power out of the round and revolvers work.
got that covered..............
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Hello all, RON L here
I like the Idea of a Combo set, many wil Piar up a 357 or 38 Revoolver with a leveraction or a Carbine like the Timber Wolf, I went a Simular Direction that in a Sten Semi in 9MM, Comboed up with a Browning High power clone in 9MM! Many ways to roll and a combo that uses same ammo, I see NO DOWN SIDE? Now Just pick the Caliber that works for ya? I know a Guy I run with here that uses a Tel Teck in 9MM as well as a Gock 19 or 17 and they even share same magazine as well as caliber? I see it as a Great Combo and the Kel Teck is his Vehicle BOB gun? He carried the Glock EDC! Onthe iother hand, I know of an Older fello her that has a S & W Mountain gun in 44 mag and Piared it up with a Winchester Lever carbive? No real wrong way to go on this? As I see it? Glad ya have it Covered MountainRedNeck2051?
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Hello all, RON L here
I like the Idea of a Combo set, many wil Piar up a 357 or 38 Revoolver with a leveraction or a Carbine like the Timber Wolf, I went a Simular Direction that in a Sten Semi in 9MM, Comboed up with a Browning High power clone in 9MM! Many ways to roll and a combo that uses same ammo, I see NO DOWN SIDE? Now Just pick the Caliber that works for ya? I know a Guy I run with here that uses a Tel Teck in 9MM as well as a Gock 19 or 17 and they even share same magazine as well as caliber? I see it as a Great Combo and the Kel Teck is his Vehicle BOB gun? He carried the Glock EDC! Onthe iother hand, I know of an Older fello her that has a S & W Mountain gun in 44 mag and Piared it up with a Winchester Lever carbive? No real wrong way to go on this? As I see it? Glad ya have it Covered MountainRedNeck2051?
44mag lever and six gun is my set up aswell
14rds of 44mag,
thats merica bitches [url=http://www.freesmileys.or
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I think they are pretty much pointless outside of the use for training or just plain fun. If your going to have the caliber of a handgun use a handgun. I see no reason to have a rifle without an actual "Rifle" caliber. Not unless it's a SBR for home defense but that's a whole other subject.
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Unless it's select fire, no, I don't see a reason.
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Way down the WROL road I could see having a revolver and a levergun in the same caliber, you'll be reloading staight cases with homemade powder, hardcast bullets on remanufactered primers so having a closed bolt will help you get more power out of the round and revolvers work.
I've been looking at that option actually.
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I would like to quantify my answer a little bit:
Ever since we had both longarms and pistols, we've been looking for an, 'in-between'. Through the years these have come in many forms. Early forms were short muskets and rifles. Later on they were relatively low-powered rifles with revolving cylinders.
Pre and post WWI pistols with rifle stocks were the answer (like the C96 Mauser and later the BHP). Right around and during WWII the submachinegun was concurrently developed in many different nations with several different designs.
During WWII, the first sub and assault rifles were developed. The US wanted a new PDW. It is notable that the M1 carbine was initially thought up as a pistol. However, the learning curve of a pistol was too was steep so a short rifle was developed. Of course, we all know about the German STG-44.
Post WWII we got into the idea that very small rounds at a very high cyclic rate would be just as effective at close range as a rifle with a slower cyclic rate due to cumulative damage. The most extreme example of this is the American-180 (.22lr at 1200RPM with drums ranging in capacity from 165 to 275 rounds each).
Right around the same time, more modern designs were developed (the Uzi dates from 1950 and the MP5 from the mid-60's). These stayed in favor until the late 1990's/early 2000's. Since then, M4's and CQBR's have come more into favor for several reasons:
-Better long range capability
-Better ballistics at short range
-Reduced risk of collateral damage
-Overall more flexible platform which is easier to adapt to dynamic situations
These are the reasons why federal, state, and local entry teams have switched from MP5's to shorty M16's. It is conspicuous that new rounds and projectiles have been developed to increase lethality and effectiveness at both short and long range even when utilizing a short barrel (such as the Mk318 Mod 0 SOST 5.56)
The PDW/carbine continues to evolve and will do so long into the future. One of the reasons I dislike PCC's in general and full size, non-FA PCC's in particular is the following:
-Pistol rounds use a fast burning powder. Any rifling beyond maximum powder burn hinders, not helps, ballistics.
-If you're going to shoot a target multiple times with a lower powered round (which is the intent) it makes sense to do so as fast as possible--this is where FA shines.
For example: When using something like an IMI Uzi with a 16" barrel and then SBR it to proper length (10.2") group sizes are reduced. This is because of the first point about fast powder and also because a shorter barrel of the same diameter is stiffer and therefore less prone to flexing.
[/long winded]
Yep. I don't see a point outside of FA. Even then (I own a registered FA Mac) it'll be the SBR AR first.
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I think they have a very limited usefulness. If you can't have optimal defensive rifles where you live (AK/AR types) then a pistol caliber lever gun might be a good idea - carry more ammo and easier to hit with at range then a shotgun, and of course less recoil. You might be in to CAS, and then it would really be optimal. However, a semi high capacity rifle beats one in most any category.
I have a KelTec Sub2000 which has some serious advantages though - It easily folds into a briefcase and it takes my Glock magazines and on range days with my wife we can shoot it at the pistol range (she's not into rifle shooting.) So it is a good thing to have in the car on trips and it is her primary in a SHTF event. It was also pretty cheap.
There might be a set of resons like this why one would be good for you.
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I think it greatly depends on ones situation. I know alot of places around the city are limited to pistol calibers only at the shooting range (indoor). In this case I think it is a great idea. Extended range, the longer barrel will give higher velocities, more controll andin the average shooters hands will be more accurate than a pistol of the same caliber. Another situation may be cost savings. As it is far better to be proficient with a pistol caliber carine that you can shoot often than a rifle caliber that you never or hardly ever shoot because you simply cant afford to. Also where applicaple the option to use the same mags is very convenient. Then to go back along with cost saving, it could be a cost savings trainer. Giving somewhat similar recoil, and near if not identical manual of arms as its rifle caliber companion. Also a good trainer for many indoor ranges
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I would rather see a pistol caliber carbine than a rifle caliber pistol ie draco or pistol AR
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Wow. I'm diggin' the info on this thread. Personally, unless you're looking at TEOTWAWKI permanently, I don't see a great need for this. Rifles will suit me for a long arm. Anything less powerful than a 5.56 isn't worth carrying, IMO (whatever little it's worth).
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Extended range, the longer barrel will give higher velocities
Not really and not always. Pistols use very fast burning powders. As such, once full powder burn is achieved, the rifling only serves to slow down the projectile via friction rather than help it.
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Extended range, the longer barrel will give higher velocities
Not really and not always. Pistols use very fast burning powders. As such, once full powder burn is achieved, the rifling only serves to slow down the projectile via friction rather than help it.
Not really extended range in the average shooters hand? From what I have seen it has proven true. More stability and longer sight radius and the average, from what I have seen can acheive longer distance shots with far more frequency. While I have not chronoed pistol bullets from a carbine barrel I remember seeing a web page that had. In almost all cases IIRC the velocity from the carbine barrel was a few houndred fps faster than that from a pistol barrel. It may not always prove to be true and I'm sure many of cases where you are right. Judging based on that website (can't remember the page, figures right?) the info is mostly true. To go with that I do not recal the barrel length for the carbine data. For a civillian 16 inch barrel, your data may very well prove to be more often true than mine. For the most part