Author Topic: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?  (Read 19058 times)

Alex1992

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2012, 10:53:58 AM »
7.62x39 Muzzle velocity, accuracy, and the range thats my opinion not fact just for your FYI  [img]http://www.smileydesign.n

Offline thatGuy

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2012, 12:09:57 PM »
For my I would have to go with the AK-74, I keep talking about ergonomics and lighter bullet= lighter mag= lighter loadout= more survivability. Not to mention that the 5.45 round has gone a long way to overcome some of the accuracy issues of the 7.62.

And for the record, arguing about which is better AR or AK, 5.45 or 5.56 doesn't make anyone think you are cool. As a matter of fact it lets people know you are an idiot. To compare one to the other is nonsence seeing as how one of them is a Submachine Gun and the other is a Carbine so quite trying and for fuck sake back away from the kool-aid.

Dare to think for yourself.


Offline crudos

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2012, 12:14:29 PM »
For the record, I started this thread to get the pros and cons on the two different AK rounds from others with more experience with them than myself. I think TG makes some great points about the inherent less weight in loadout of the 74.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2012, 12:28:49 PM »

And for the record, arguing about which is better AR or AK, 5.45 or 5.56 doesn't make anyone think you are cool. As a matter of fact it lets people know you are an idiot. To compare one to the other is nonsence seeing as how one of them is a Submachine Gun and the other is a Carbine so quite trying and for fuck sake back away from the kool-aid.

Dare to think for yourself.

Both the AR and AK are considered assault rifles. A submachine gun fires a pistol cartridge by definition. Its a very realistic and fair comparison.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 12:33:49 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2012, 12:37:47 PM »
there is so much wrong with this thread,

5.45x39
5.56x45
7.62x39
7.62x51

have all been to war and killed alot of fucking people with great success
pick a platform and train hard, then who gives a fuck what anyone else thinks
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Offline Kobalt

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2012, 01:32:35 PM »
there is so much wrong with this thread,

5.45x39
5.56x45
7.62x39
7.62x51

have all been to war and killed alot of fucking people with great success
pick a platform and train hard, then who gives a fuck what anyone else thinks

Pick what you can take and go to work.
Fan out your shots. We want everyone to get some.

1000meterstare

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2012, 02:11:37 PM »
If the average american AR owner was still using the 20" barrel the "smaller but slower" crack would be true.  With 14" and 16" barrels being the norm now in the AR world that statement is pure bullshit now.  53 grains is only 2 grains lighter and the 16.25" barrel on the AK is pretty much standard so you get the advertised velocity.  Not so with the AR 5.56 "Barbie" gun. [url=http://yoursmiles.org/p-m

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2012, 02:44:48 PM »

m193 55gn bullet out of a 16" ar15 runs 3100fps
which really isn't enough difference to matter in ballistics
I'm merely pointing out you seem to have a strong aversion to anything regarding the 5.56 or the ar15 regardless of actual facts or logic
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Offline Grudgie

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2012, 04:22:55 PM »
Well he is correct that the 20 inch barrel is much more effective with 5.56. A FULL METAL JACKET 62gr. 5.56 only fragments above something like 2900 fps. The reason the USMC still uses a 20" M16 is because the bullet stays above 2900 FPS for significantly longer ranges. With a 20" barrel a M855 drops below 2900 at around 150 yards. With a 14.5 inch barrel the velocity drops below 2900 fps at around 50 yards. I'm not 100% certian about any of these numbers but this is from what I can remember.

But now when you are using commercial grade hollow points and ballistic tips, all barrel sizes are fair game. The military is restricted to FMJ due to the geneva convention.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:24:58 PM by Grudgie »

Offline EJR914

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2012, 07:30:33 PM »
For my I would have to go with the AK-74, I keep talking about ergonomics and lighter bullet= lighter mag= lighter loadout= more survivability. Not to mention that the 5.45 round has gone a long way to overcome some of the accuracy issues of the 7.62.

And for the record, arguing about which is better AR or AK, 5.45 or 5.56 doesn't make anyone think you are cool. As a matter of fact it lets people know you are an idiot. To compare one to the other is nonsence seeing as how one of them is a Submachine Gun and the other is a Carbine so quite trying and for fuck sake back away from the kool-aid.

Dare to think for yourself.

In the upcoming festivities there is only one question.   ARE YOU GOING TO BE QUICK OR DEAD?  The lightest, fastest guy is going to own and win, period.  Yeah I know, I'm going to die, but maybe some of you other guys can make the smarter choice.  Light and fast will win every time.  Plus you can carry more actual rounds, for the same weight as you could with the large rounds.  Another win.

Offline EJR914

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »
If the average american AR owner was still using the 20" barrel the "smaller but slower" crack would be true.  With 14" and 16" barrels being the norm now in the AR world that statement is pure bullshit now.  53 grains is only 2 grains lighter and the 16.25" barrel on the AK is pretty much standard so you get the advertised velocity.  Not so with the AR 5.56 "Barbie" gun.

If you hit someone in the heart, lungs, or brain bucket, what difference will it make?  None.  Shot placement means a lot more than terminal ballistics of a round, when you're talking small rifle rounds like this.  We're not talking about AP .50 BMG rounds here.

Offline Grudgie

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2012, 08:04:23 PM »
Quote
If you hit someone in the heart, lungs, or brain bucket, what difference will it make?  None.  Shot placement means a lot more than terminal ballistics of a round, when you're talking small rifle rounds like this.  We're not talking about AP .50 BMG rounds here.

I don't know much but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that EJR. With small rifle rounds, terminal ballistics is everything. Not penetrating deep enough will just cause a shallow bloody flesh wound, while penetrating too deep will pass through the other side leaving a tiny .22 sized hole. In the heat of close combat it is only the hits that count. You don't really think about where you are aiming, it is just a matter of center mass. Hunting is a different story.

We have these friendly discussions about ballistic theory now to maximise our potential for when we actually have to use it.

Colombo

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2012, 09:29:35 PM »
So your in a shtf situation, you have the choice between an AK47 in 7.62x39 or AK74 in 5.45x39. Amount of ammunition is the same. Which do you pick and why? Discuss....
 [img]http://www.smileydesign.n


On my own I would take the 5.45 because of proven lethality on target, accuracy, and weight, In a group and with the concern of mag availability and ammo compatibility  I will have to side with 7.62 due to the numbers of guns, mags and ammo availability. Both are good dependable calibers that with practice and use deliver better accuracy than there reputations would leave one to believe with a good edge to the 5.45. The 7.62 has more reloadable brass available which for me is a consideration as I have dies and brass for it. I have an ak in 7.62 now and would like to add the 5.45 but will only do so if or when I can squirrel away 3 cases of ammo for it. Also aimed follow up shots have a slight edge for the 5.45

After all that I feel I should mention my first grab will be an ar and a carbine at that, loaded with 55 grain hp based on skill and known effect as that is what I have the most trigger time with (yeah there will be a couple of mags of 62gr too).

Offline thatGuy

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2012, 01:32:01 PM »
Like Colombo points out there is a lot more that could make or break your relationship with a rifle than what caliber it is.

Personally I wouldn't trust the opinion of the interwebz. I would go finger one myself, I'd look at their method of operation, build and lineage. You can settle a lot of debate by knowing that the AK was supposed to be stamped but the USSR couldn't figure that little trick out yet so they made them with mill receivers. It wasn't because of blah blah blah blah it was because they couldn't figure out how to mass bend as it were.

I would also look at what gear is available, how well it fit, what kind of quality is available and if any modern makers were designing *new* gear for it. While it would work we all wanna avoid that first run military surplus.


Offline EJR914

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2012, 02:05:54 PM »
I don't know much but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that EJR. With small rifle rounds, terminal ballistics is everything. Not penetrating deep enough will just cause a shallow bloody flesh wound, while penetrating too deep will pass through the other side leaving a tiny .22 sized hole. In the heat of close combat it is only the hits that count. You don't really think about where you are aiming, it is just a matter of center mass. Hunting is a different story.

We have these friendly discussions about ballistic theory now to maximise our potential for when we actually have to use it.

That's why you use Full Metal Jackets, or full metal jacketed hollow points, I'm sorry, but in combat, only an idiot if you use frangible ammo in your rifle out in the field.  What's you're talking about DOES NOT happen with 5.56, 5.45, or any other small rifle round if you are using Full Metal Jacket or full metal jacketed hollow points.  You don't know what you're talking about.

Plus if you hit someone with even a frangible rifle bullet in the brain, they are unconscious or dead.  Taken out of the fight at least.  I'm sorry, but you're wrong.  Shot placement DOES matter a hell of a lot more than what FMJ rifle round you are using.  Only an idiot if you bring frangible rounds onto a battlefield.

You're really going to sit there any deny that if you shoot someone in the brain with a metal rifle round that it will not take someone out of the fight?

I've talked to people that have actually been IN COMBAT while using the smaller 5.56 round, and they said that its all about SHOT placement, no matter what small rifle caliber you are using, whether it is 7.62 or 5.56.  Proper Shot placement is what takes people out of the fight.  Its also about MULTIPLE follow up shots, that hit their target, until the target is no longer moving, breathing, and they are obviously out of the fight and dying.

Hell, you can kill someone with a .22 rifle round if you put it in the right place.  RFK was killed with .22's and hit men use it all the time.  Put it right in their eye and brain, or their heart, and they're dead. 

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Not even to mention that fast, small projectiles going through heavy mass, create a huge temporary cavity inside the body that rips and destroys massive amounts of tissue causing nerves and blood vessels to break and bleed, and stop functioning.  Those small fast projectiles also have LARGE exit wounds instead of small tiny exit wounds.  If you're worried about all that, use jacketed hollow points.  That should do the trick.  Whatever you do, do not use frangible ammo in combat because of the penetrations problem.  All copper and lead jacketed hollow points work just fine for penetration and damage.

Also, its a myth that people die when shot just once.  So why in the world would you just shoot once?  You continue shooting over and over and over again, until the target is down, not moving or breathing anymore.  Only and idiot would stop shooting after you hit a target one time, even if its a head shot.

Also, you can TRAIN yourself to aim for Hips and Heads, even under stressful conditions.  Only the untrained go for centermass ONLY hits as a reaction or reflect when shooting.  You can actually train yourself to put two in the chest and then one in the head, and then focus on the head and hips, in case they are wearing plate armor in a bullet proof vest.  You continue to shoot until the target is down and is not breathing or moving anymore.  I'd say you should empty your magazine, then I'd probably do a reload, and if it moved again, I'd keep shooting until it stops moving and breathing.

These are things that everyone here should know.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 02:15:44 PM by EJR914 »

Offline mountainredneck2051

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2012, 05:43:25 PM »
i'm so done with this thread  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at
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Offline Grudgie

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2012, 06:04:05 PM »
Quote
You're really going to sit there any deny that if you shoot someone in the brain with a metal rifle round that it will not take someone out of the fight?

I'm not quite sure how you got that from my post, I'm simply saying that unless you're Annie Oakly, a hit on the torso is better than missing the head. I have heard that even head shots won't reliably take someone out of the fight if you don't hit the 'T' target of between the eyes and the mouth.

For most people, going into combat is an adrenalline rush and the only thing you can think of in engagements of like 10 yards is pressing the boom switch with your shaking hands to make your enemy go away. Combat is not target practice.

Offline RS762

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2012, 08:32:08 PM »
Quote
You're really going to sit there any deny that if you shoot someone in the brain with a metal rifle round that it will not take someone out of the fight?


I'm not quite sure how you got that from my post, I'm simply saying that unless you're Annie Oakly, a hit on the torso is better than missing the head. I have heard that even head shots won't reliably take someone out of the fight if you don't hit the 'T' target of between the eyes and the mouth.

For most people, going into combat is an adrenalline rush and the only thing you can think of in engagements of like 10 yards is pressing the boom switch with your shaking hands to make your enemy go away. Combat is not target practice.


No im pretty sure head shots that aren't "in the T" are pretty goddamn incapacitating.
To claim otherwise is incredibly foolish.











« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 08:34:25 PM by RS762 »

Offline NOLA556

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2012, 08:47:39 PM »
Anything past 200 yards is just pot shots no matter what rifle you're using.

Then call me pot shotter lol...
200 yards isnt that far at all. shooting a rifle at 200 is like shooting a pistol at 25 yards.

lol... right on. irons on an AR are sighted for 300yds for a reason. and that's just irons. imagine what a little bit of glass could accomplish.

(just to clarify, I always thought that a "pot-shot" was like the "too easy" shot. aka "like shooting fish in a barrel" but for this post, I'll just roll with the alternate interpretation.)

my personal experience: while I'll admit that I don't have extensive experience with long range rifle shooting, I've done it every chance that I've been able to (idunno, maybe 15 times, tops. i just don't have the land for it) ok so: 8" circular target will be our constant in this comparison. 100 yds: you have to TRY to miss regardless what rifle or caliber. this is the yardage that I have the most experience with. 200 yds certainly is a bit more challenging with irons OR non-magnified optics, but that 8" target usually gets nailed about 7 out of 10 times @ 200. 300 yds is pushing it for an 8" target, but center-body mass @300 is like shooting the old 8" plate @100. certainly not a pot-shot. 400 is the longest range shooting I've ever done, and the results were: AR15 w/ EOTech (non-magnified) hitting a man-sized torso (paper silhouette target) about 7 out of 10 times on average. Rem700 w/ 9x magnification was getting about a 7" group around the heart @400. I'm nothing more than an amateur, especially with scoped rifles. Kenny, you already know how little I know when it comes to that, lol. I couldn't make a dope card for my rifle to save my life. (even though you've tried to explain it to me before) I have no clue in that department. I'm just winging it and getting the results that I listed. my point is, certainly not "pot-shots".

as for the OP, the choice should be made based on your local terrain, or the terrain of your BOL. mine happens to be heavily wooded, so long range and flat trajectory doesn't sound as appealing as massive wound cavities and the ability to penetrate barriers. rather than having yet another lame caliber debate, let's talk about realistic things like "what best suits your surroundings".
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Offline Grudgie

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2012, 09:14:56 PM »
Calm down. Nobody is saying head shots don't kill. Or incapacitate.

But the average human will not be able to reliably make head shots under stress.

1000meterstare

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2012, 09:36:38 PM »
Not to bust EJ's bubble (and I don't mean to play the bitch card) but I AM one of those people who have been IN COMBAT with the 5.56 and the AR platform.  Totally unimpressed.  Accuracy supberb, but not enough barrier penetration.  It's sooo frustrating when you know exactly what barrier the bad guy is behind and you can't get him and he keeps you pinned with his 7.62 x 39.  It's a whole world of shit and frustration. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

Offline Grudgie

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2012, 09:36:51 AM »
Quote
What's you're talking about DOES NOT happen with 5.56, 5.45, or any other small rifle round if you are using Full Metal Jacket or full metal jacketed hollow points.


Look at this picture and tell me M855 doesn't fragment.




I dug this out of a  pile of dirt. Shot from a 20 inch barrel at 36 yards. It's actually a well known fact that military ball ammo fragments at certian velocities.

Offline WhiskeyJack

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2012, 01:17:59 PM »
I personally think the best platform is the one you have trained with the most. And i agree with mtn redneck. They have all gone to war and killed the enemy. Im going to answer tyour question with another question though. Do you think that in an extended SHTF situationthat every one will have the same weapon they starded with? I would suggest trusti g your gut and just picking a platform now and get trainig. Butt try to vet familiar with as many platforms as you can. You may start out with a 47 orr a 74.but who knows, two yrs into a bad thing, you may find yourself with a FAL, mini-14 or a 8mm Mauser. I know we all get a lil protective of our calibers, but ill tell ya i dont even want to get shot with a bb gun. And all ghe afore mentioned calibers can get yer pulse rate to zero with little ddifficulty. So my .02 centts says as long as your proficient on yer stuff and know its limits and capabilities, and you have the ability to transition to other platforms as needed. Then the
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Offline WhiskeyJack

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2012, 01:22:59 PM »
Sry bout that. Postin from a nook. To finish though. The question is what are you most comfortable and capable of getting yer hands on to begin a wrol situation with?
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Offline EJR914

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Re: AK in shtf, which round? 7.62x39 or 5.45x39?
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2012, 06:53:08 AM »
Quote
What's you're talking about DOES NOT happen with 5.56, 5.45, or any other small rifle round if you are using Full Metal Jacket or full metal jacketed hollow points.


Look at this picture and tell me M855 doesn't fragment.




I dug this out of a  pile of dirt. Shot from a 20 inch barrel at 36 yards. It's actually a well known fact that military ball ammo fragments at certian velocities.


A bullet will fragment when its shot into dirt?  No!  Say it ain't so!  LOL