Author Topic: Talking Solar 2021  (Read 1003 times)

Offline Jackalope

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Talking Solar 2021
« on: April 18, 2021, 12:53:02 PM »
    This should probably be in a new thread.  There are a number of solar calculators on-line.  Try: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/    or  https://solarpanelsvenue.com/free-solar-panel-calculator-solar-power-calculator/     I used some rough estimates for 400 KWH per month, and the calculator indicated 44-55  100 watt panels for an on-grid system.  Sun Electronics (www.sunelec.com) has great prices on solar panels, especially if you purchase by the pallet or container load.  With the larger systems, you're better off going with higher wattage panels.  With the higher wattage panels, you would need less of them, so for the 400 KWH you could probably power the system with 15-20 panels. 

     From experience, one reliable company is the Alternate Energy Store (www.altestore.com) which carries most major brands of solar energy equipment, and they also offer classes, which help you design and maintain your own system.  Solar energy systems are not rocket science, especially for amateur radio operators.  The on-grid systems are a little more complicated, but not overly so. 

     I encourage anyone thinking about a solar electric system to get actively involved in the entire process, as it will save you money in the long run.  I suggest that the panels be ground mounted, for several reasons.  One reason is the ease of accessibility.  In the northern climes, having the panels close to ground allows you to sweep off snow, and to clean the panels.  As you get older, ground mounted panels allow you to avoid climbing on ladders or renting an expensive man-lift.  Troubleshooting is much easier on the ground too.

    Most localities have codes regarding solar electric systems.  So be prepared for an inspection of your system.  Actually, checking out the local codes should be one of your first steps when planning on a system.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2021, 02:40:09 PM »
Thank you Jackalope.  :cheers:
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2021, 01:36:49 PM »
I thought I could get by with 7 KWH/day system but when the quote came in at $13,500- it was cost prohibitive.

I have reevaluated my solar needs and I have asked for further quotes.

Reevaluated needs,

1) I only want to power my three freezers, Rinnai on demand water heater, a refrigerator (Biggest draw of power) and a
    52" ceiling fan in the great room. Total power consumption in a day is ~4 KWH/Day. I added a 20% error rate so I am
    looking for about a 4.8 KWH/day system.
2) Other parts of my house like the water pump, a few lights, and the Sirus radio run on the current 12 vlt system just fine.
3) I have the ability to purchase 8D 225 AH wet cell batteries through a previous employer at employee pricing. My guess
    is I will need 4, 12 vlt batteries put into series for 48 vlts.

I will keep the group in "the know" as I progress.  :popcorn:
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Offline pkveazey

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2021, 03:26:04 PM »
There is a lot to know about going solar. If you go whole house Solar and allow yourself to be attached to the Grid, then you'll have to have a licensed Electrician do all of the work and it will not fall into the Emergency power category. In that situation, you'll need lots of solar panels and a really big 220 volt AC power inverter. If you go whole house Solar and don't connect to the Grid, then you'll need lots of solar panels, a huge charge controller, a ton of Deep Cycle batteries, and a huge 220 volt AC power inverter and you'll need a licensed Electrician to install everything. All of that will be covered in the National Electric Code (NEC). Now, if you are going to do what I did, you won't need a licensed electrician. My Solar power system is EMERGENCY POWER and must be connected manually (plug it in by hand and unplug it by hand). Then it doesn't have to meet any of the NEC requirements. That doesn't mean you can go all stupid and burn your house down. My system is 4-100 watt parallel connected solar panels (22 volts DC at 5 Amps each) connected to a 20 amp charge controller, that is connected to 2-100 AH Battle Born Lithium deep cycle batteries. That is connected to a 12 VDC to 220 volt AC 5000 watt inverter plugged into a 30 Amp outlet that feeds the whole house. My system cost me about $3000.  Hmmmmm..... Well, that won't last long. If you use good energy management, it will get you through the night with no problem. Convert as many lights to LED's as possible, Use Flourescent lights if you can't use LED's. If you must use Filament bulbs, use low wattage bulbs. Turn off all the circuit breakers that you don't need. When I need to go on Emergency power, I turn off the Electric hot water heater until I need hot water, Then I turn it back off when I don't need it. When the Hot water heater is on, I turn off the electric well pump. I also turn off the Electric stove and just use the Microwave or my 2 burner camp stove. The bottom line is, I can get about 12 hours of use from my batteries with no problem. Hmmmm..... What about Heat or AC? Heat is out of the question but I can use the AC. Just keep in mind that if your batteries get too weak during the night, you can connect jumper cablers from you car to the batteries and bring them back up to full charge in a pinch just by letting the car idle for about 1/2 hour. Why do I have such a small solar system? It a backup system to my gas powered Generator system. One day, I might not be able to get Gasoline. Oh, as a side note: You cannot use 2 charge controllers in parallel because one of them will see the other providing a charge and then it thinks that it doesn't need to do anything. If you want to use more panels, make sure you get a really big charge controller. By the way, my system is all 12 volt batteries in parallel. I chose 12 volts because it allows me to charge my batteries from a 12 volt source like my car.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2021, 10:07:10 AM »
All good stuff PKv  :cheers:
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Offline Felix

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 11:50:48 AM »
Ever ever proof was needed...   (that I'm crazy, paranoid, a fool)

After consideration of facts and the social/political possibilities/probabilities they portend...
…and in consideration of my arid location's "water is life" mantra...
… and with a view to the people, animals and plants who absolutely depend on me making good decisions/preparations..

…I am now in process (plans made, permits pending, financing signed and committed, tax accountant consulted) to the building and operation of a grid-connected 18.7kW solar system (with a 16.0kW inverter) to include a Tesla power wall (1).  Engineered to produce 32.78 MWhs yearly.   Our electric bill averages $300/month to APS (Arizona Power Service) and the scheduled loan payments come in about $10 cheaper monthly to start.   APS raises rates @ 4% historically, the loan payment remains the same, no prepayment penalty.
The system will sometimes generate more than we use and feed into grid giving us credits against the times we consume more than produced. 
So.
Electric bill is stabilized (inflation is a bitch against relatively fixed incomes)
and
The power wall will be capable of running the well pump and refrigeration for food/drug storage in a grid-down scenario.  A 9.5 kW propane-driven generator that I already own as backup). While admittedly limited, this will help preserve quantity of life, the quality decided by improvisation to some extent (cold showers anyone?)   
Call me crazy and a fool wasting money.   Call me a stand-out target (how do overheads miss a target this obvious?)... just don't call me unprepared or late for supper.
I'll provide photos of progress if anyone is interested.
And I'd might be willing to discuss just how much $$$ this costs but I'm not drunk enough at present to do so.

Offline Jackalope

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2021, 02:51:52 PM »
    Without going into a lot of detail, folks might like to search for 'guerilla solar' and then check Amazon for 'micro inverter grid tie'.  There's some interesting equipment on the market that can potentially save you some money, with a modest investment. 

Offline Nemo

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2021, 05:12:14 PM »
I DuckDuckGo-ed that.  Will be doing more looking around.

Nemo


http://solar4living.com/guerrillaSolar.htm
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 05:15:23 PM by Nemo »
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2021, 01:48:25 PM »
So far I have a fair quote from AltEnergy for all but the batteries. The batterie$ are what i$ killing us.

It is a 48V system and to make it work I need to be able to store a minimum of 675 AH which comes out to 16, 6V deep cycle batters with 420 AH storage or 12, 12V dual purpose marine batteries (8d) with 225 AH storage. Cost is $4.8K (6v) vs. $3.0K (12V). And then there is true deep cycle vs. dual purpose marine (Deep cycle & Starting).

Complete, we are looking at $10k vs. $8.5K respectively. OUCH!

Thoughts?
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Offline Felix

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2021, 03:58:35 PM »
Have you compared the lead/acid deep cycles with lithium batteries?.
Yes, lithium induces sticker shock _but_ looks to me like it shines in "life cycle" comparisons to old technology.  For the number of lifetimes recharges, the depth to which you can discharge a lithium without damaging it, the ability/rate at which they can soak up recharge...
I'm springing for ONE Tesla power wall for home in the financed package under way.
Already have a Battle Born lithium in travel trailer and will be adding one more this year (30 amps pf solar panel on rood) along with a controller/inverter.  That total will mean the automatic coffee pot will wake me with its blessed perking and aroma, can watch Mister Ed reruns on the flat screen at night.
The numbers drive my sane side nuts but then the thought of how idiotic I'd feel if water was needed and we didn't have it...

Offline Felix

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2021, 04:00:07 PM »
Sorry, forgot to include handy link to Battler Born...
https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/

Offline pkveazey

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2021, 05:40:37 PM »
I did a lot of research on Lithium deep cycle batteries before going with Battle Born. There are several Batteries out there that compare somewhat favorably to Battle Born and they are about 20% to 25% cheaper. However, Battle Born has a ton of protective circuitry inside the battery that the others don't have. Before I plunked down my money, I called Battle Born and talked to one of there Engineers and told him in great detail what I had and needed it to do and he told me the minimum that I could get away with and then saved me $50 on each of the Batteries. Since I have a background in Electronics, I could tell he knew what he was talking about. He told me to buy 2 more 100 watt solar panels and to buy two 12volt Battle Born 100 AH batteries and I would easily make it through the night with Lights, Well Pump, Refrigeration and even TV and Computer. He said four 100 watt solar panels would be needed to fully recharge the batteries for the next nights use. I'm pretty sure, I'll have to keep my HAM RADIO use to a minimum but then there is always the 12 volts from idling automobiles if necessary.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2021, 03:39:01 PM »
Okay folks. I pulled the trigger on a 4.8 KWH/a day, complete solar system with altE. I could have gotten the batteries a hair cheaper by going local BUT the money I would have saved would have given me extra work and... Time = money. Plus, the batteries I purchased have a 5-year prorated guarantee and most of the batteries I was looking at were rated at 1,000 cycles, these are rated at 3,000 cycles.

I will be writing up a review and of course I will share that with you when done.

Just an FYI, I have been dealing with three solar companies during this process along with five battery companies. altE was the most friendly and helpful in the process. All three were pretty much in line with each other price wise. ALL battery companies could have given a rats ass if I bought 8, 12, or 16 batteries from them, in either 6 or 12 volts. Two right out told me they would not deliver to a residential address. Two took the info on what I was looking for and to this date, have not gotten back to me. The last one told me what I was looking for would not work and I needed to buy 'X'. He was wrong.

Till I post the review on this subject,
73 & God Bless
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Offline Jackalope

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2021, 11:10:43 PM »
   An early congratulations, Johny.  I'd say your timing is good, before the wheels fall off the wagon.  Speaking of a wagon, life is the U.S. sometimes reminds me a riding in a radio flyer wagon, you're rolling down hill, no brakes, and you have to be real careful steering so you don't get injured or killed.

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2021, 08:41:27 AM »
Yeah Jackalope,

I wonder how many folks here under 40-years-old use to take that heroin ride down the road only to pull that wagon back up the hill to do it all over again.  :cheers:
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2021, 08:25:02 AM »
My solar system arrived Monday. There was two pallets and one package on the truck. Another package arrived latter in the day via UPS.

Here are some pictures,





The 18-wheeler  :facepalm: :facepalm: showed up at 1015 hrs. local. I told the dispatcher not to send a 18-wheeler but of course they did. There is nowhere for a 18-wheeler to turn around where my cabin is. Anyway, I had him back up onto my road and he dropped the pallets in the middle of the road and took off.

I finished breaking down the pallets and moving all, panels, batteries, components, etc. down the road about 1/2-mile to the cabin. I finally sat down at about 1600 hrs, with a nice cold Yuengling beer and a fist full of Excedrin. Moving 8, 127-lb batteries from the road-head into the cellar, pretty much killed me. 

Now it is time to build the solar panel racking, stringing wire, hooking things up and having my wife flip the switch. I never flip the switch on my electrical projects  :dancingBanana:

I have that to do plus, rototill the garden, put up a new fence around the garden, plant the garden, cut/split this coming season's fire wood, etc. I sure wish MrsMac and I had a son to help out. As always, I will get 'er done.

Better stock up on Excedrin and Black & Tan Yuengling beer.

I will start a new thread on "the build" of our new solar system.

73 & God Bless

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Offline Felix

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2021, 10:02:52 AM »
Yes, stock up on NSAIDs - cuz your kitchen "lab" probably can't cook 'em up.
And ALWAYS have a stock of fresh beer on hand (to wash the NSAIDs down with)

But stock barley.   And/or learn to grow/process it.  And/or keep track of neighbors who do.
In the long haul, brewing your own beer is the ticket.
Plus, venison/barley soup ain't half bad...    :-)

Offline patriotman

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2021, 01:46:13 PM »
If you need help, give me a holler.

My solar system arrived Monday. There was two pallets and one package on the truck. Another package arrived latter in the day via UPS.

Here are some pictures,





The 18-wheeler  :facepalm: :facepalm: showed up at 1015 hrs. local. I told the dispatcher not to send a 18-wheeler but of course they did. There is nowhere for a 18-wheeler to turn around where my cabin is. Anyway, I had him back up onto my road and he dropped the pallets in the middle of the road and took off.

I finished breaking down the pallets and moving all, panels, batteries, components, etc. down the road about 1/2-mile to the cabin. I finally sat down at about 1600 hrs, with a nice cold Yuengling beer and a fist full of Excedrin. Moving 8, 127-lb batteries from the road-head into the cellar, pretty much killed me. 

Now it is time to build the solar panel racking, stringing wire, hooking things up and having my wife flip the switch. I never flip the switch on my electrical projects  :dancingBanana:

I have that to do plus, rototill the garden, put up a new fence around the garden, plant the garden, cut/split this coming season's fire wood, etc. I sure wish MrsMac and I had a son to help out. As always, I will get 'er done.

Better stock up on Excedrin and Black & Tan Yuengling beer.

I will start a new thread on "the build" of our new solar system.

73 & God Bless


Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.

Psalm 144:1-2

Offline Jackalope

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2021, 03:06:38 PM »
   Looks like you'll be busy for a while Johny.  I'm glad you've received all the equipment. 

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2021, 04:00:06 PM »
Thx for the advise and offer of help gents.

Picked up a 1/4 steer today (130-lbs) from the guy I buy my beef from. That should put us back into beef until August/September time frame.

Put a bid on the ranchers daughters 4-H project which is a 1,200-lb steer. It will go up for auction after the fair in August. The ranchers daughter is fawning all over this steer (Black Angus) so it should be tasty and tender. LOL.

Coming to the end of the post summer challenges that are coming down the pike.
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Offline pkveazey

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Re: Talking Solar 2021
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2021, 05:39:39 PM »
From what I could glean from your comments, I've come to the conclusion that your batteries are Lead/Acid Deep Cycle batteries. They must be kept in a well ventilated area because of explosive gases. I once ran a CB radio off a Car battery that was located in the kitchen and after about 6 months I noticed a brown stain on the linoleum floor that appeared to be a burn mark all around the battery. Damn!!! I didn't know that the gases from the battery were heavier than air. I plan to keep my batteries in the house also, so I went with Lithium. My problem is that Lithium batteries don't explode but they can catch fire.