Infant Sentenced to Death in Great Britain

[JohnyMac]

I tend to stay away from highly emotional subjects on this site as the site should be fun however every once in a while I use this forum to vent. Today I am venting against Government Ran Healthcare.

We see across the pond that our Great Britain brothers & sisters think it is OK to allow a child named Alfie Evans to die.

Alfie was made a Italian Citizen and the Italian government is welcoming this infant into their country BUT The UK government will not allow the parents to take him to Italy. This is the UK Health System giving a death sentence to a child which is all about 'control' and 'death panels'.

Remember death panels with Obama Care? Or control, when it comes to infringing on our rights as written in the Bill of Rights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYJS80MgYA

Once you sign your life away to "da' man", you are then owned by him.

Venting done!
 
 

[grizz]

This is a terrible story but its been going on in the Country for many many years via the VA. Countless Vets have been mistreated, intentionally misdiagnosed, and put off for so many years that very few people care anymore. The story is "old"...

[JohnyMac]

Yes, but no.

The vets if they so chose and were made an Italian citizen, could go to Italy for treatment. NOBODY would stop them like the UK government is stopping a 2 year-old.

In this country, the State does not own our children. They at times try to gain control however they are usually pushed back.

The saddest thing here, is why doesn't 1,000 UK Citizens storm the hospital, grab the child and take it to a flight to Italy. I guess they have been so whipped down that they do what they are told by the state.

Its a sad state of affairs. 

[JoJo]

 When the boy dies Italy should do something for the death of one of its citizens. Maybe a murder warrant for the judge and doctors involved.

 As for the veterans, the more dead the less to vote Republican. When power and hate are entwined the Grim Reaper will appear.

[JoJo]

The saddest think here, is why doesn't 1,000 UK Citizens storm the hospital, grab the child and take it to a flight to Italy. I guess they have been so whipped down that they do what they are told by the state.

That is something free men do. British are SUBJECTS they have always been subjects and don't know what freedom is.

[grizz]

The brits had no problem protesting brexit and IIRC they even protested Trump but they wont show up to protect a baby from the govt???

I wonder if Trump has commented on this??

[gadget99]

Hi all,

They just announced on the news here in the UK that he passed away this morning.

This whole episode has caused a big uproar here.

The details of the case a massively complicated in the least.

On the surface this can look like a negative case against universal health care. However as I said this is a complicated case.

While it is known that the NHS provides health care for everyone. What Is not well known is that there is indeed private health insurance here. Most employers offer it as part of employment benefits. Not at the minimum wage level. Yet at for higher positions.

The family in question did not have private health insurance so relied upon the National Health Service.

Without taking a side on the issue I want to report what little I understand on the issue.

1. This case has caused the voting public to call for the government to examine the laws and policies surrounding the issue. So this while tragic looks to be a possible catalyst for change.
2. While not perfect. The NHS is bloody brilliant. I cannot complain. As A matter of fact I believe their performance as I have experienced and seen. Has far surpassed the HMO's that insurance company's made people in the states go to.
3. Another thing to note is that the NHS provides services to the populace at no cost other than the taxes a person pays from their pay. So think about the huge investment the NHS made in the treatment to this date of this child.
4. Now since the system looks to have flaws in relation to how the case was handled in relation to the decision. It looks as if the lessons learned are being taken seriously.
5. This is indeed a rare event over here. There have been very few times in the great scheme of things where the medical teams have advised a parent that the child has no prospect for recovery and the parent disagrees. The medical team taking the legal route to gain a decision is a rare situation.
6. If the government had agreed to fund the transfer to Italy for treatment. That treatment appears to according to the info available. Had the potential to ease some of the symptoms of the condition Alfie had.  Not cure the condition. So Alfie would have lived in some degree of the vegetative state he was in.



So in a nutshell the whole situation was a mess. There was never going to be any answers in this case. This case was a loose loose situation for all parties concerned.

Would the outcome have been different if it were in the states? Probably not in the end. It would not have gone to the courts in all likelihood. While the details are not provided. It appears that the parents are not employed or in a very low wage bracket.  If they were in the states it is doubtful that they would have been able to afford health insurance so there is a bit of Apple's and oranges in a comparison.

The whole situation was a complicated mess.

[gadget99]

The brits had no problem protesting brexit and IIRC they even protested Trump but they wont show up to protect a baby from the govt???

I wonder if Trump has commented on this??

There was a constant protest presence outside the hospital with at least on instance where the crowd attempted to storm the hospital.

So this really did cause a stir over here.

[JohnyMac]

I try not to express an opinion on other countries politics except when in my eye clear evidence of cruelty. The United States is not exempt from this criticisms either. Waco and Rubi Ridge comes immediately to mind.

With that written, I really appreciate the time you took Gadget to fill in the blanks.

My main point is....Italy went the extra mile to make Alfie a citizen of that country and to offer up a flight to that country to as you wrote, "...ease some of the symptoms of the condition Alfie had." For the NHS/Government to have not allowed the transfer is a dark spot on 'public healthcare'. It served no purpose other than to remind UK citizens that as JoJo wrote, "British are SUBJECTS...".

I am glad to read that there was protesting and at least one attempt was made to snatch Alfie from the hospital to put on a helicopter. Although this is future tripping, I wonder if that was accomplished the RAF would have scrambled to force the helicopter down. Again, we will never know.

In closing, let this be a lesson to all free Democracy's that governments main purpose is to CONTROL.

God Bless you Alfie! 

[gadget99]

JM...

You have expressed many of the thoughts I have had.

The whole mess was so complicated and messed up. There was no good answer. I do wish they had allowed the transfer to Italy though. You never know till you try.

That being said. I will close with a few points.

1. In my opinion and experience the NHS is a stellar example of success in terms of the services they provide and the dedication of those that provide those services.
2. The political element that provides the funding for the service and calls the shots is broken and needs fixed.
3. While the political elite have the upper hand, the populace should not be discounted as a force of change or such. Piss off a bunch of Brita and you got a riot brewing.

While the UK is not perfect. There are good points.

[JohnyMac]

100% agree on all of your final points Gadget. 

[grizz]

Would the outcome have been different if it were in the states? Probably not in the end. It would not have gone to the courts in all likelihood. While the details are not provided. It appears that the parents are not employed or in a very low wage bracket.  If they were in the states it is doubtful that they would have been able to afford health insurance so there is a bit of Apple's and oranges in a comparison.

uninsured Illegal aliens are getting better and free treatment from private (not govt funded) hospitals while our Veterans are getting crappy (at best) free treatment from govt funded facilities.

Most Dr's are more concerned about gaming the ins. system than treating patients

Govt funded facilities have no interest in actually taking care of patients, their goal is to take home a paycheck. Their jobs are secure regardless of quality of service and they know it.

My current VA Dr is a marine, her husband is a marine and their daughter just signed up, that tells me they do care about other Vets. Unfortunately most do not

That being said Id rather be a free citizen than a subject to the crown any day of the week...

God Bless America

[gadget99]

Would the outcome have been different if it were in the states? Probably not in the end. It would not have gone to the courts in all likelihood. While the details are not provided. It appears that the parents are not employed or in a very low wage bracket.  If they were in the states it is doubtful that they would have been able to afford health insurance so there is a bit of Apple's and oranges in a comparison.

uninsured Illegal aliens are getting better and free treatment from private (not govt funded) hospitals while our Veterans are getting crappy (at best) free treatment from govt funded facilities.

Most Dr's are more concerned about gaming the ins. system than treating patients

Govt funded facilities have no interest in actually taking care of patients, their goal is to take home a paycheck. Their jobs are secure regardless of quality of service and they know it.

My current VA Dr is a marine, her husband is a marine and their daughter just signed up, that tells me they do care about other Vets. Unfortunately most do not

That being said Id rather be a free citizen than a subject to the crown any day of the week...

God Bless America

I am with you there grizz.

If we were still living back in the states I would be relying on the VA system also.

I am on Tricare remote and can claim treatment if I wish. Yet there are very few providers here that take Tricare. No VA facilities either.

So for myself and family we rely upon the NHS and have been lucky in not having any issues with the system.

[JoJo]

 Years ago I had a neighbor whose two year old sun needed a heart transplant. The father was a house painter and the mother was a house wife. They couldn't afford it , but speak of miracles some unknown person paid for most and the doctors and hospital covered the rest. He was the youngest to get a new heart. They had to fly to California for the procedure. What they did find out was Frank Sinatra's private airplane was the one that flew them back and forth free of charge.
 I believe in the USA someone would have helped the parents of Alfie get the necessary help.       

[Nemo]

A Catholic hospital in Italy said we will fly him here and treat him, no charge to parents.  Italian govt had declared him an Italian citizen.  It was 2 hours by plane to get to the Italian hospital.

Father was interested in pursuing a murder charge against the hosp and docs.  I heard Italy was interested in pursuing something along those lines in the international court system over there.  I could not find a link for that tonight.


The British medical system is not something I would want to deal with in any manner.

Nemo


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43872678

http://www.lifenews.com/2018/04/25/alfie-evans-father-considers-filing-lawsuit-against-doctors-for-conspiring-to-murder-my-son/

[gadget99]

A Catholic hospital in Italy said we will fly him here and treat him, no charge to parents.  Italian govt had declared him an Italian citizen.  It was 2 hours by plane to get to the Italian hospital.

Father was interested in pursuing a murder charge against the hosp and docs.  I heard Italy was interested in pursuing something along those lines in the international court system over there.  I could not find a link for that tonight.


The British medical system is not something I would want to deal with in any manner.

Nemo


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43872678

http://www.lifenews.com/2018/04/25/alfie-evans-father-considers-filing-lawsuit-against-doctors-for-conspiring-to-murder-my-son/

I fully understand you sentiments on this one.

As I said before this whole case was messed up big time.

What I do however wish to provide personal insight to is the quality of care I and my family has experienced over the last 15yrs.

While the NHS is not perfect. I can get a same day appointment with the doctor on any day in my local village. I can receive on the same day a prescription that I can take to a pharmacy that is in walking distance from my local doctors office and get the prescription fulfilled as I wait. I can get all of my meds fulfilled at a rate of £8 or $11 for the lot.

If I am referred to higher treatment. I will receive an appointment at the hospital that will be within two weeks.

If I have a problem at home that requires an ambulance. They will show up at my home within 10 to 20 minutes and if required will take me to the hospital in the same amount of return time. all of this is at no cost to me.

If I was in a serious accident or in need of airlift. The helo would come and get me and take me to medical care at the princely sum of £0.

So as I wish to communicate.

We have apples and oranges in comparison.

Yet I will not complain about the care we have recieved.