Author Topic: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?  (Read 1352 times)

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 11:20:37 AM »
If people want to support Israel so bad then cut a damn check. Why does the entirety of the US tax base give Israel its $8 million+ A DAY in financial "aid". Surely there is a more voluntary solution to this problem.

If only we could pick and choose where our tax money went...
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2012, 11:30:20 AM »
Quote
YOU are free to stand up for whatever you want, it is WRONG when you go to the government and vote to force the rest of us to pay taxes, that get shipped to Israel as Foreign Welfare, just as we do with hundreds of country, because of something that you believe.  That is morally wrong.  Its no different than armed robbery.  If you don't understand the comparison I can explain it later in great detail.  I think we should cut ALL Foreign Welfare to all countries right now, NOT just Israel.

Are you saying anytime a majority decides something its robbery to the minority? If i felt we should cut all welfare to all americans does this mean im being robbed because i dont agree that we have 40 million on welfare? If my presidential candidate dosent win have i been robbed because i have to pay for a president i dont approve of? Im not sure i understand where your coming from EJR so if you could explain in more detail id appreciate it.
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Offline EJR914

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2012, 12:18:37 PM »
Quote
YOU are free to stand up for whatever you want, it is WRONG when you go to the government and vote to force the rest of us to pay taxes, that get shipped to Israel as Foreign Welfare, just as we do with hundreds of country, because of something that you believe.  That is morally wrong.  Its no different than armed robbery.  If you don't understand the comparison I can explain it later in great detail.  I think we should cut ALL Foreign Welfare to all countries right now, NOT just Israel.

Are you saying anytime a majority decides something its robbery to the minority? If i felt we should cut all welfare to all americans does this mean im being robbed because i dont agree that we have 40 million on welfare? If my presidential candidate dosent win have i been robbed because i have to pay for a president i dont approve of? Im not sure i understand where your coming from EJR so if you could explain in more detail id appreciate it.

A little known fact about Income Tax is that it was originally passed under the PREMISE that paying income tax would always remain VOLUNTARY.  Very shortly after it was passed, the Federal government made it Mandatory and started putting the government FORCE behind paying the tax.  So yes, in a way, you are correct.  Paying income tax should have always stayed voluntary, for everybody just as it was the premise behind passing the law in the first place.  I don't believe that our government should force people to pay income tax for things that they do not want.  Like I said, if people find value and like the things the money is being spent on, by all means, write the government a big fat check whenever you want.  Nobody is stopping you.

The fact that income tax is now mandated or mandatory BY LAW for everyone, means that if you do not pay, eventually men with guns will show up to your home, and they will take you away and take part of your life and definitely take your freedom, because you'll be in prison.  If you resist, you with be beaten into submission, and if you really resist, with whatever means you have necessary, they will kill you and take all of your life, liberty, and property forever. 

Quote
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington

Believe it or not, Kentactic, the Majority of Americans for over 100 years lived in the United States and NEVER were forced to pay National Income Tax.  More time went by, during America's first 100 plus years, where people were not forced, and they didn't even have a law for income tax, than has went by SINCE the Income Tax laws were passed under the premise that they would always remain voluntary, which of course it didn't.  Like always, the government gets something passed under a FALSE premise, and then changes that premise as soon as it is passed.  Its a bunch of BS is what it is. 

That is what I mean when I say that government is FORCE and they force you to pay Income Tax, and anytime the government FORCES you to do something, especially do something that you do not believe is morally right, yeah, it is morally wrong to force someone else to cough up property for something that they do not believe in.  That's what income taxes are, the forceful taking of one's property, against their will.  Paying income tax should have always remains voluntary, just as the premise was, unto which it was originally passed. 

Now if and when we start talking about a consumption tax, like the Fair Tax plan, then you are no longer forced to pay the tax, because you can voluntarily chose whether or not you engage in that commerce that triggers the tax.  It is a MUCH more acceptable and voluntary form of taxation, because you chose and decide to engage in the commerce that triggers the tax liability. 

As it is right now, by simply, MAKING income (property), through your limited number of heartbeats, your limited TIME on this earth, using your finite energy, and using your intellect and your mind, you are then FORCED to give up that property, at the barrel tip of a government gun, and I believe that is morally wrong, for another man, to force that upon his neighbor.  Yes I do.

I hope that better explains the libertarian/volutyrist small Constitutional government view that some people like myself hold.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:24:22 PM by EJR914 »

Offline NOLA556

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2012, 01:21:09 PM »
  I don't believe that our government should force people to pay income tax for things that they do not want.


that sure as hell would solve alot of problems, wouldn't it! if there was a voluntary opt-out for just about everything, the .gov would have no choice but to govern by the will of the people. it would eliminate this whole convoluted voting process, and eliminate congress' ability to enact many of these bullshit laws simply because they wouldn't have the budget to fund unpopular programs. (well, maybe not eliminate, but it sure as hell would put a serious damper on it)

take something like NDAA or Patriot Act for example. let's say only 10% of the taxpaying population supports it, congress only has 10% of their desired budget to implement it.

maybe a little bit of a pipe dream, but then again, I'm sure running the British out of town seemed like a pipe dream too.

EDIT: wait... that's actually a terrible idea...  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at I just realized after posting this that it would be just another form of direct democracy, except through taxation rather than through the ballot box. yea.. scratch that. back to the drawing board.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 01:24:11 PM by NOLA556 »
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2012, 02:27:58 PM »
Quote
YOU are free to stand up for whatever you want, it is WRONG when you go to the government and vote to force the rest of us to pay taxes, that get shipped to Israel as Foreign Welfare, just as we do with hundreds of country, because of something that you believe.  That is morally wrong.  Its no different than armed robbery.  If you don't understand the comparison I can explain it later in great detail.  I think we should cut ALL Foreign Welfare to all countries right now, NOT just Israel.

Are you saying anytime a majority decides something its robbery to the minority? If i felt we should cut all welfare to all americans does this mean im being robbed because i dont agree that we have 40 million on welfare? If my presidential candidate dosent win have i been robbed because i have to pay for a president i dont approve of? Im not sure i understand where your coming from EJR so if you could explain in more detail id appreciate it.

A little known fact about Income Tax is that it was originally passed under the PREMISE that paying income tax would always remain VOLUNTARY.  Very shortly after it was passed, the Federal government made it Mandatory and started putting the government FORCE behind paying the tax.  So yes, in a way, you are correct.  Paying income tax should have always stayed voluntary, for everybody just as it was the premise behind passing the law in the first place.  I don't believe that our government should force people to pay income tax for things that they do not want.  Like I said, if people find value and like the things the money is being spent on, by all means, write the government a big fat check whenever you want.  Nobody is stopping you.

The fact that income tax is now mandated or mandatory BY LAW for everyone, means that if you do not pay, eventually men with guns will show up to your home, and they will take you away and take part of your life and definitely take your freedom, because you'll be in prison.  If you resist, you with be beaten into submission, and if you really resist, with whatever means you have necessary, they will kill you and take all of your life, liberty, and property forever. 

Quote
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington

Believe it or not, Kentactic, the Majority of Americans for over 100 years lived in the United States and NEVER were forced to pay National Income Tax.  More time went by, during America's first 100 plus years, where people were not forced, and they didn't even have a law for income tax, than has went by SINCE the Income Tax laws were passed under the premise that they would always remain voluntary, which of course it didn't.  Like always, the government gets something passed under a FALSE premise, and then changes that premise as soon as it is passed.  Its a bunch of BS is what it is. 

That is what I mean when I say that government is FORCE and they force you to pay Income Tax, and anytime the government FORCES you to do something, especially do something that you do not believe is morally right, yeah, it is morally wrong to force someone else to cough up property for something that they do not believe in.  That's what income taxes are, the forceful taking of one's property, against their will.  Paying income tax should have always remains voluntary, just as the premise was, unto which it was originally passed. 

Now if and when we start talking about a consumption tax, like the Fair Tax plan, then you are no longer forced to pay the tax, because you can voluntarily chose whether or not you engage in that commerce that triggers the tax.  It is a MUCH more acceptable and voluntary form of taxation, because you chose and decide to engage in the commerce that triggers the tax liability. 

As it is right now, by simply, MAKING income (property), through your limited number of heartbeats, your limited TIME on this earth, using your finite energy, and using your intellect and your mind, you are then FORCED to give up that property, at the barrel tip of a government gun, and I believe that is morally wrong, for another man, to force that upon his neighbor.  Yes I do.

I hope that better explains the libertarian/volutyrist small Constitutional government view that some people like myself hold.

Thanks for breaking it down for me EJR, i dont dissagree with anything you wrote i was more or less trying to see if your view carried all the way over or if it was just directly related to foreign aid. I will say though that if a person decided to pay no taxes and it was a legal choice theyd better have a shit ton of land because simply driving down a road off their property would be deemed tresspassing in tax payers eyes and essentially theyd become illegal aliens any where but on their own land. Theyd be arrested for stealing from tax payers. So really even in small government your choices are pay the flat rate or percentage based on your income or be banned from america. So wether it be social or government influenced your average american still MUST pay taxes to enjoy a modern america.
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Offline EJR914

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2012, 04:11:04 PM »
Thanks for breaking it down for me EJR, i dont dissagree with anything you wrote i was more or less trying to see if your view carried all the way over or if it was just directly related to foreign aid. I will say though that if a person decided to pay no taxes and it was a legal choice theyd better have a shit ton of land because simply driving down a road off their property would be deemed tresspassing in tax payers eyes and essentially theyd become illegal aliens any where but on their own land. Theyd be arrested for stealing from tax payers. So really even in small government your choices are pay the flat rate or percentage based on your income or be banned from america. So wether it be social or government influenced your average american still MUST pay taxes to enjoy a modern america.

Not necessarily, it could be that way on certain interstate highways, and county roads, but I guess the tax payers could make that a law or something, but it isn't even that way NOW.  The bums that have never paid income tax in their life still use all of our government facilities and get government entitlements and they damn sure use our tax-money paid for roads all the time, we don't kick them out just because they've never paid any income tax, and I don't see where that would change if the income tax was moved back to being mandatory.  I'm guessing the reason you think like that is only because of the way it was first chosen by the gov't to be set up that way, which was to have ANOTHER mandatory tax, some income, and some is 50% of every gallon of gas you buy is tax that goes to the government.  Also, it would have NOTHING to do with citizenship, that would all stay the same, I don't know why you think that paying taxes is somehow linked to citizenship, it isn't and it wasn't for the first 200 plus years that Americans lived in this country as American citizens.  I'm not sure I follow you with that.  If paying the tax was mandatory for all American citizens, like the income tax was supposed to be, then I don't see how not paying the tax would mean you were not a citizen anymore.  You lost me there.  I'm confused. 

I'm sure you've heard of toll roads, well if the government would have been more freedom minded, it would have just left the setting up EVERY road as a TOLL road (so it would start off as a dirt road) and they would begin to pave the road as the money came in) TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, (OR by selling bonds and stocks just like how ANY private company gets investors, and the investors could be people that saw the profit or the need for the road to go through a certain area) or who would use it the most.  Private companies can actually build roads using tolls, or issuing stocks to investors, MUCH CHEAPER, MORE EFFICIENTLY, FASTER without tons of bureaucratic financial WASTE than can the government, (because if the forced tax money is given to politicians they just squander the saved up money in the first place, and like I said, the inefficiency, waste and slowness of bureaucracies.)  The private company will just save up toll money and keep it saved  up to certain amounts, where they could afford to pave a certain distance of it. 

They private sector management companies could carefully adjust the cost of the roll roads, so that traffic times X amount of dollars per vehicle = total cost of the road completed in lets say 5 years.  The People that owned the property where the road went through, would of course have to sell the property to the private company (Sort of like Railroads do), that is if the owners were not using that property for something else.  If it was, they'd have to find a way around property that they could voluntarily purchase from people.  It would have to include the price that it would cost to clear the trees off of it or build a bridge over water or swamps.  All that can be calculated in the planning phase by planners and schedulers just like most projects to build anything do. 

People who wanted a road through a certain area could also VOLUNTARILY give money to the company, and receive stocks and bonds back for the money, and the company would pay for this property and the clearing of trees, because they saw the economic and efficient value in have the road go to and from the location.  They have two options, the company would then decide if they wanted to sell more bonds and stocks and receive more investor money or just go straight toll dirt road at this point or certain mixes of the two.  The choice is theirs.  Isn't it wonder when private companies have freedom of choice to make the best decisions for THEIR company?  LOL

After the land was bought and the trees were cleared, it could remain a dirt road, ever vehicle that USED the road would have to pay a toll to use the road.  Or the company could sell more stocks and bonds to investors like you and me to raise the money to go ahead and pave the road.  The teams could slowly pave it during off-times, much like they do now, and let's say you figure a 5 year window and your average daily use, and charge that much for each car that uses the road.  If using the TOLL method, the popular path ways get build, but if it wasn't that popular it would take longer or it would be more expensive per car, if it was too high the road wouldn't be completed for a long time, because people didn't find the VALUE of putting a road through that area.  If they used the Stock and Bond investor route, the road would just be paved right away, before vehicles even drive on it.

After the road was completely built, the toll could still stay in place, and certain scheduling an planning could be done to calculate the cost of repairs to the road, and then you take the average traffic on that road, and you come up with an even cheaper price, than the price it took to build the road.  Now everyone is even happier, and you don't have to FORCE people to pay for a road that they have never used in their life, and some may never once use that road that they were forced to pay for with their tax money.  A private company could even keep selling stocks and bonds to investors for the maintenance, and then that way, popular roads that got used a lot (like big interstate highways) would be a good investment and would be more well maintained more, than say some obscure road that nobody ever uses, which would probably lead that road to either die completely or be poorly maintained, like it only one person uses the road.  Its sort of like Competition, and the more popular roads, the roads with the MOST VALUE, would beat out the crappier less used roads, that one person uses.  That's kind of competition is good, its efficient and it works.  Our current system doesn't quite work that way, its very inefficient, and lot of time tons of money is wasted on roads that very few people use, and are not even popular, not even to mention the bureaucratic waste that goes on with our forced mandatory tax dollars. 

You see, when it comes to roads, there has been NUMEROUS studies done on it that PROVES not only do people LIKE toll roads better, than being taxed all kinds of ways involuntarily, but they actually LIKE getting to keep MORE of the money that they labor over, and then just pay for the roads that they actually USE the most with the TOLL system.

The problem with out government now, is that they DOUBLE hit us on Toll roads.  They charge us crazy taxes AND hit us up for more cash on the TOLL roads.  This is the OPPOSITE way in which toll roads are supposed to work.

You see, whenever you give government a huge slush fund of money, its always more inefficient, slower, costly, than if you would allowed a private sector company to do it.  The market works.

The sad thing is that since the government has done it the WRONG way for 40 years, people such as yourself and everyone else that gets indoctrinated in our public schools and by the government' media, you didn't even KNOW that you could build roads with private companies and private workers, and that it is a much more efficient, cheaper, faster and all around better way to build things such as roads.  Look at the railroad companies for instance, back in the 1800's.  Look how THEY build their rails.

You see, private sector will ALWAYS beat out government in every single way, because FREE Markets WORK, no matter how much the government tries to destroy them, control them, and ultimate bring them all the way down with ridiculous costly regulations and BS hoops to jump through.

I'm pretty sure that there are not many here that even know it was possible for us to build roads with private companies, because we've been so brainwashed and indoctrinated into ONLY the government can build roads through forced Taxes, because that is what the government schools and the government's media WANT us to think.  They want us to always think like slaves and serfs.  Well its time we all break out of those chains and see the truth, and also see the government for what it is... inefficient, bureaucratic, wasteful, slow unbridled force. 

I hope that explains everything a little bit better.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 05:05:24 PM by EJR914 »

Offline EJR914

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2012, 04:15:05 PM »
EDIT: wait... that's actually a terrible idea...  [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at I just realized after posting this that it would be just another form of direct democracy, except through taxation rather than through the ballot box. yea.. scratch that. back to the drawing board.


No, Nola, it wouldn't at all.  We would still have elections and a Constitution, and we would still be a Representative Republic.  It would just make sure that the people have a very sure way to keep our government within its proper Constitutionally bound box (Without the lawful use of arms and force by The People, you and me), which it outgrew about 150+ years ago, and we have never been able to put it back since then.  It gives us a financial tool to help keep the monster in its properly limited Constitutional roll.

We all know that our government grew outside of its limited Constitutional box a long time ago.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2012, 04:48:03 PM »
Thanks for breaking it down for me EJR, i dont dissagree with anything you wrote i was more or less trying to see if your view carried all the way over or if it was just directly related to foreign aid. I will say though that if a person decided to pay no taxes and it was a legal choice theyd better have a shit ton of land because simply driving down a road off their property would be deemed tresspassing in tax payers eyes and essentially theyd become illegal aliens any where but on their own land. Theyd be arrested for stealing from tax payers. So really even in small government your choices are pay the flat rate or percentage based on your income or be banned from america. So wether it be social or government influenced your average american still MUST pay taxes to enjoy a modern america.

Not necessarily, it could be that way on certain interstate highways, and county roads, but I guess the tax payers could make that a law or something, but it isn't even that way NOW.  The bums that have never paid income tax in their life still use all of our government facilities and get government entitlements and they damn sure use our tax-money paid for roads all the time, we don't kick them out just because they've never paid any income tax, and I don't see where that would change if the income tax was moved back to being mandatory.  I'm guessing the reason you think like that is only because of the way it was first chosen by the gov't to be set up that way, which was to have ANOTHER mandatory tax, some income, and some is 50% of every gallon of gas you buy is tax that goes to the government.  Also, it would have NOTHING to do with citizenship, that would all stay the same, I don't know why you think that paying taxes is somehow linked to citizenship, it isn't and it wasn't for the first 200 plus years that Americans lived in this country as American citizens.  I'm not sure I follow you with that.  If paying the tax was mandatory for all American citizens, like the income tax was supposed to be, then I don't see how not paying the tax would mean you were not a citizen anymore.  You lost me there.  I'm confused. 

I'm sure you've heard of toll roads, well if the government would have been more freedom minded, it would have just left the setting up EVERY road as a TOLL road (so it would start off as a dirt road) and they would begin to pave the road as the money came in) TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, (OR by selling bonds and stocks just like how ANY private company gets investors, and the investors could be people that saw the profit or the need for the road to go through a certain area) or who would use it the most.  Private companies can actually build roads using tolls, or issuing stocks to investors, MUCH CHEAPER, MORE EFFICIENTLY, FASTER without tons of bureaucratic financial WASTE than can the government, (because if the forced tax money is given to politicians they just squander the saved up money in the first place, and like I said, the inefficiency, waste and slowness of bureaucracies) saved up to certain amounts, where they could afford to pave a certain distance of it. 

They private sector management companies could carefully adjust the cost of the roll roads, so that traffic times X amount of dollars per vehicle = total cost of the road completed in lets say 5 years.  The People that owned the property where the road went through, would of course have to sell the property to the private company (Sort of like Railroads do), that is if the owners were not using that property for something else.  If it was, they'd have to find a way around property that they could voluntarily purchase from people.  It would have to include the price that it would cost to clear the trees off of it or build a bridge over water or swamps.  All that can be calculated in the planning phase by planners and schedulers just like most projects to build anything do. 

People who wanted a road through a certain area would have to of course VOLUNTARILY give money to the company, and receive stocks and bonds back for the money, and the company would pay for this property and the clearing of trees, because they saw the economic and efficient value in have the road go to and from the location.  They have two options, the company would then decide if they wanted to sell more bonds and stocks and receive more investor money or just go straight toll dirty road at this point.  The choice is theirs.  Isn't it wonder when private companies have freedom of choice to make the best decisions for THEIR company?  LOL

After the land was bought and the trees were cleared, it could remain a dirt road, ever vehicle that USED the road would have to pay a toll to use the road.  Or the company could sell more stocks and bonds to investors like you and me to rains the money to go ahead and pave the road.  The teams could slowly pave it during off-times, much like they do now, and let's say you figure a 5 year window and your average daily use, and charge that much for each car that uses the road.  If using the TOLL method, the popular path ways get build, but if it wasn't that popular it would take longer or it would be more expensive per car, if it was too high the road wouldn't be completed for a long time, because people didn't find the VALUE of putting a road through that area.  If they used the Stock and Bond investor route, the road would just be paved right away, before vehicles even drive on it.

After the road was completely built, the toll could still stay in place, and certain scheduling an planning could be done to calculate the cost of repairs to the road, and then you take the average traffic on that road, and you come up with an even cheaper price, than the price it took to build the road.  Now everyone is even happier, and you don't have to FORCE people to pay for a road that they have never used in their life, and some may never once use that road that they were forced to pay for with their tax money.  A private company could even keep selling stocks and bonds to investors for the maintained, and then that way, popular roads that got used a lot (like big interstate highways) would be a good investment and would be more well maintained more, than say some obscure road that nobody ever uses, which would probably lead that road to either die completely or be poorly maintained, like it only one person uses the road.  Its sort of like Competition, and the more popular roads, the roads with the MOST VALUE, would beat out the crappier less used roads, that one person uses.  That's kind of competition is good, its efficient and it works.  Our current system doesn't quite work that way, its very inefficient, and lot of time tons of money is wasted on roads that very few people use, and are not even popular, not even to mention the bureaucratic waste that goes on with our forced mandatory tax dollars. 

You see, when it comes to roads, there has been NUMEROUS studies done on it that PROVES not only do people LIKE toll roads better, than being taxed all kinds of ways involuntarily, but they actually LIKE getting to keep MORE of the money that they labor over, and then just pay for the roads that they actually USE the most with the TOLL system.

The problem with out government now, is that they DOUBLE hit us on Toll roads.  They charge us crazy taxes AND hit us up for more cash on the TOLL roads.  This is the OPPOSITE way in which toll roads are supposed to work.

You see, whenever you give government a huge slush fund of money, its always more inefficient, slower, costly, than if you would allowed a private sector company to do it.  The market works.

The sad thing is that since the government has done it the WRONG way for 40 years, people such as yourself and everyone else that gets indoctrinated in our public schools and by the government' media, you didn't even KNOW that you could build roads with private companies and private workers, and that it is a much more efficient, cheaper, faster and all around better way to build things such as roads.  Look at the railroad companies for instance, back in the 1800's.  Look how THEY build their rails.

You see, private sector will ALWAYS beat out government in every single way, because FREE Markets WORK, no matter how much the government tries to destroy them, control them, and ultimate bring them all the way down with ridiculous costly regulations and BS hoops to jump through.

I'm pretty sure that there are not many here that even know it was possible for us to build roads with private companies, because we've been so brainwashed and indoctrinated into ONLY the government can build roads through forced Taxes, because that is what the government schools and the government's media WANT us to think.  They want us to always think like slaves and serfs.  Well its time we all break out of those chains and see the truth, and also see the government for what it is... inefficient, bureaucratic, wasteful, slow unbridled force. 

I hope that explains everything a little bit better.

OK so no taxes will be taken for roads but well just stop at/have our card scanned at 30 toll roads on the way to work every morning? They always need repairs so the toll roads will never be taken down. So if were ok with that and lets assume that the total money taken/given for roads will be less because it will be directly related to your own usage. Next issue is who appoints who to run build these tolls scanners or booths, what ever the system may be? Governments growing again... and government usually contracts to the private sector to build new roads from what ive seen but contracted or not, if the governments paying them to do something they are now part of government.

 Now the citizenship remark is me making a point. If you dont pay for the roads in any way be it tolls or taxes you shouldnt drive on them or your a theif in my opinion. And if you dont contribute to your country in any way then ill assume your 10 acre lot is your own country because if you step foot on what ive paid for we have a problem. This is all in line with the reality of how difficult the system your propossing would be to create so in similar fashion im adding that wed some how know who did and didnt pay taxes aswell.

Next question, will we have toll booths to enter parks? they have on going bills that need to be paid for water and maintanance work. How about police? will that be included in the toll roads? Perhaps a toll road at the front door of your home could cover the fire dept ? once everythings all done and paid for to run a 1st world country its looking to be yet again a required taxation wether it be a toll road or removed from your check. opting out might have been more realistic in the 1800's but not so much today from what im seeing with what i currently know.

I urge you to change my mind. beleive me i want you to.
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Offline EJR914

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2012, 05:37:47 PM »
OK so no taxes will be taken for roads but well just stop at/have our card scanned at 30 toll roads on the way to work every morning?


I don't know if you've been on toll roads, but you don't stop anymore.  A scanner just scans your ID chip as you drive by, and you pay the money every month.  No need to even stop.  Technology is wonderful, trust me.  Private companies are the ones bringing us such innovation, not the government. 


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They always need repairs so the toll roads will never be taken down. So if were ok with that and lets assume that the total money taken/given for roads will be less because it will be directly related to your own usage.


Like I said, private companies would do it, (if the government would allow them to, which they don't, they've made it against the law for private companies to build interstates) because they would go to the public and see if there was enough financial support to by stocks and bonds, and of course, the company would want to do this, because every company wants to make a profit and make money.  Since the government has outlawed this, it doesn't happen, which is why you don't know about this possibility.  Government wanted to make all the interstate's because it wanted all the control when you drive on THEIR roads, even though your tax money paid for it.  The government, when Eisenhower came up with the idea, could have just as easily let Private Industry take care of it, instead of forcing the taxes, and making it illegal for private companies to get into the market in the first place.

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Next issue is who appoints who to run build these tolls scanners or booths, what ever the system may be?


Again, the ever efficient private market and private companies would figure all this out, more efficiently and better than the government ever could.  You see, we've been told to be good little Statist our whole lives, and that government can do everything better than the private sector and yet that is just not true.  I'm sorry, it just isn't. 

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Governments growing again... and government usually contracts to the private sector to build new roads from what ive seen but contracted or not, if the governments paying them to do something they are now part of government.


That's a very intelligent observation, Ken, and not many people ever make it that far in their thinking.  Since the government is paying them with OUR tax dollars, they basically are government employees, not private company employees receiving private sector funding.  Very good Ken.  I'm really impressed.  Most people do not get that right away.  Also on a side note, the government by definition cannot create jobs.  It only takes money that would have been used in the private sector, that would have been used to create private sector jobs, and the government could not exist without the private sector making value and money, so that they can then tax that value and money.  Government jobs are actually a tax on the productivity of the private sector.  Don't get me wrong, though, not ALL government jobs are bad or anything, its just that some are wasteful and not helpful and could actually be done better, cheaper, fast, and more efficiently in the private sector.     
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Now the citizenship remark is me making a point. If you dont pay for the roads in any way be it tolls or taxes you shouldnt drive on them or your a theif in my opinion. And if you dont contribute to your country in any way then ill assume your 10 acre lot is your own country because if you step foot on what ive paid for we have a problem. This is all in line with the reality of how difficult the system your propossing would be to create so in similar fashion im adding that wed some how know who did and didnt pay taxes aswell.


Yep, that is a very hard line approach to it, but yeah, the way it SHOULD have been set up, in the very beginning by the private sector, not the government, is that if you don't pay the toll or taxes, you CANNOT use the road.  You MUST pay the toll, which is a private sector tax, in order to USE that exact road.  Police or private security should be there (Yes we need police or private security, the private sector could pay them) to stop and fine or arrest anyone caught stealing by not paying the toll because they do not have the ID chip that the scanners read as your ride by the Toll Station.  That is one excellent thing that police and private security could do to make sure that nobody is stealing, and that everyone who actually uses the road is paying their fee for the use, creating, and the damage their vehicle is doing to the road, because maintenance cost money as well.  However, you're right, it would best behoove you to pay the toll on the road that connects to your property, from your dirt roads or the roads that you yourself pave on your own land, whatever you want to do.  Its your land.  Also, private companies could set their own rules for who can and cannot walk across their roads or facilities or whatever.  I agree, though, if you do not pay, you don't get to use it, period.  Also, as far as walking across other private land, that is up to you and the people who own it.  They could trespass you, or they could let you travel across their land that they own.  It would be up to private companies to set up their own rules on that, though, and everywhere would be slightly different probably.  You would still be a US citizen, though, whether you paid taxes at all, or you just didn't pay quite as much as the other guy, because well, let's say you don't believe in paying taxes for welfare, so you don't pay quite as much as your neighbor does, because he likes paying for welfare.  You're still both American citizens that are protected under the Constitution of this country, and the State laws on voting would also need to be equal because of the 14th amendment.  Citizenship wouldn't change because of the amount of taxes one does or doesn't pay, IMHO.  Just like it doesn't matter now.

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Next question, will we have toll booths to enter parks? they have on going bills that need to be paid for water and maintanance work. How about police? will that be included in the toll roads? Perhaps a toll road at the front door of your home could cover the fire dept ? once everythings all done and paid for to run a 1st world country its looking to be yet again a required taxation wether it be a toll road or removed from your check. opting out might have been more realistic in the 1800's but not so much today from what im seeing with what i currently know.


Ohh yes, most certainly, and right now, with the parks that I love here in Georgia, we already pay to enter the park, and I'm always joyfully willing to pay whatever, because I love the parks here, and I want them to be able to stay open, so myself and my family can continue to enjoy them.  I love them so much.  Also, that brings into competition as well.  The best parks, would have an obligation to have the cleanest and nicest facilities so that it would attract people to spend their money there.  The crappier parks, with lazy employees would probably end up failing, and the parks would have to be sold off, because nobody wanted to go to the crappy parks, and they would eventually go under because people quit funding them, and they would be sold off, because the property still has value that people would pay for. 

As for police, I don't really see a way around having police, we literally NEED to have law and order and police, so the private companies could pay security personnel, who then have police come help them apprehend and then arrest people who would steal or break other laws on private property, much like most of the parks have now.  I went to a park last week who has a paid security guard, non-LEO, and when he has a problem, he has the police drive in and arrest the perp.  Private industry could pay for LEO as well, and people that VALUED police services could also send the government money, if they wanted the services of the police.  Don't pay for police?  Don't call them, because they won't come to your private property to help you, because YOU didn't pay for them.  I would think MOST people would gladly pay the government money for LEO, voluntarily, though, and only the biggest bull headed idiots wouldn't pay for police, because any level headed person realizes that we need law and order and we NEED police to come arrest bad people.  That is fairly standard, and I feel the money for that should be given voluntarily by people who want police services.  I know I want the police to come when I call them, so personally, I would give my share of money to the police because I want their services when I need them, sort of like how I buy insurance for my home, even though I rarely if EVER need it.  Its just sort of like me paying for home insurance. 

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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2012, 08:07:25 PM »
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Like I said, private companies would do it, (if the government would allow them to, which they don't, they've made it against the law for private companies to build interstates) because they would go to the public and see if there was enough financial support to by stocks and bonds, and of course, the company would want to do this, because every company wants to make a profit and make money.  Since the government has outlawed this, it doesn't happen, which is why you don't know about this possibility.  Government wanted to make all the interstate's because it wanted all the control when you drive on THEIR roads, even though your tax money paid for it.  The government, when Eisenhower came up with the idea, could have just as easily let Private Industry take care of it, instead of forcing the taxes, and making it illegal for private companies to get into the market in the first place.

Im not 100% sure so i cant speak on a state level but i know in my city all big road work is contracted out. No normal size city has the manpower or equipment to build roads. they always contract out to the private sector. Im almost certain the same goes for building freeways aswell.

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Again, the ever efficient private market and private companies would figure all this out, more efficiently and better than the government ever could.  You see, we've been told to be good little Statist our whole lives, and that government can do everything better than the private sector and yet that is just not true.  I'm sorry, it just isn't. 


Youd be suprised how poor a job some private contracters do when they know cutting corners means more money in their pocket. I deal with the result of their work every day so i know. With a government worker he gets paid the same either way so doing it the right way makes more sense, especially if he has to continue to work on it in the future. Of course theres bad eggs in both groups but this is what i have experienced. I also know half ass government workers too so it goes both ways but just saying.

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Don't get me wrong, though, not ALL government jobs are bad or anything, its just that some are wasteful and not helpful and could actually be done better, cheaper, fast, and more efficiently in the private sector.     


Yep theres no question theres LOTS of waste in government jobs. But again yes it COULD be done better, cheaper, faster, and more efficiently in the private sector, if the guy doing the job wants to do it that way. But remember a poor job = more money to him. And i think lots of prive sector workers cut corners because weve lost our way in america and a job well done isnt worth much anymore. but theres still some out there doin whats right not what makes the wallet the fattest.




Well im glad we had this little rally here EJR you make good points, I just had to play devils advocate to get it out of you lol.. Id love to opt out of paying taxes towards Welfare and just not be able to recieve it ever, among other things.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 08:09:22 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline EJR914

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Re: Buchanan: Why This Obsession With Iran?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 11:23:13 AM »
We are getting really off-topic now, but ohh well, its my thread.  LOL

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Im not 100% sure so i cant speak on a state level but i know in my city all big road work is contracted out. No normal size city has the manpower or equipment to build roads. they always contract out to the private sector. Im almost certain the same goes for building freeways as well.

Yes, of course they do.  That is correct.  Government does a TON of hiring sub-contractors to do their work in all sorts of arenas.  One thing you are missing is that its still OUR tax dollars that pay these sub-contractors to do the work.  If this were done in a purely private funding, stocks and bonds for a company, or even paying via toll or some mix of both, you would see a shit load of more financial and time efficiency, because the guys are getting paid by The People, or the company, and they put strict budgets, strict project controls, and strict timelines on the worker's ass.  The government is the opposite, they ALWAYS go over on budget by 3 times as much sometime, they have NO project controls, and they have NO timeline for the workers, so the subcontractor workers know that they should fuck up whatever they are doing three times, take their precious little time, be lazy, and work at about 1/8th the speed that they really could, and they will purposely fuck shit up, so they can then drag out the work, and make a 6 month job, 3 to 5 years to complete.  The workers are getting paid by the hour, and work is hard to find out there, so they aren't fucking stupid, they know they are giving themselves job security for the next 5 years, instead of three months.  That's a lot of security and money in their pockets.  That's how the real world of government subcontracting works.  Its that way for MANY different fields, building roads is just one of them.

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Youd be suprised how poor a job some private contracters do when they know cutting corners means more money in their pocket. I deal with the result of their work every day so i know. With a government worker he gets paid the same either way so doing it the right way makes more sense, especially if he has to continue to work on it in the future. Of course theres bad eggs in both groups but this is what i have experienced. I also know half ass government workers too so it goes both ways but just saying.

Ohh, I'm not surprised AT ALL, I WORKED with a dozen government sub-contractors for three years in my old job in the DOE, and DOD field.  I saw it ALL first hand.  I know their piss poor, lazy work, I witnessed the cutting of corners, I witnessed these bureaucrats and government employees CREATING problems out of thin air, JUST so they would have JOB SECURITY, and CREATE a reason for them to even have a position, when NO position was even needed in that slot.  I've seen them create reasons to even hire a new person, where there was no NEED for that new hire in the first place.  Its really immoral and disgusting how they waste our tax payer dollars with sub-contractors.  I've witnessed first hand this exact same thing you are talking about.  Like I said, private sector funded and private sectors works will do it better, cheaper, and more efficient than the government or government-hired subcontractors.  Once they get on the government tit, they are dug in like a fucking tick to collect as much of they can of our wasted tax-dollars.  It is just standard practice now.  If you find one company not doing this, they won't last very long because this sort of thing has become STANDARD PRACTICE now, and they old guard will protect this practice at all cost, even if they have to make work disappear for now, only to give it to another subcontractor who will play ball, and fuck off and fuck around instead of getting work done on time and on budget. 

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Yep theres no question theres LOTS of waste in government jobs. But again yes it COULD be done better, cheaper, faster, and more efficiently in the private sector, if the guy doing the job wants to do it that way. But remember a poor job = more money to him. And i think lots of prive sector workers cut corners because weve lost our way in america and a job well done isnt worth much anymore. but theres still some out there doin whats right not what makes the wallet the fattest.

Yep, there is no doubt in my mind that whatever the government does with my tax-money, myself and private sector companies with private sector funding could do whatever the government does and do it better.  No doubt about it at all.  You're right though, our government and this country is really fucked up right now.  We are not immune to the laws of economics and nature.  Eventually, we are all going to have to pay, for what is going on in our country right now.  Its going to hurt big, too.  Its going to be very bad.