Author Topic: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts  (Read 4660 times)

Offline APX808

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Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« on: April 20, 2014, 09:04:21 AM »


This reflects my personal opinion as someone outside Bundy's ranch wanting to know
what was going on and just receiving reports like "This is a mess, no one knows shit,
the feds didn't shot yet".

I believe Bundy's Ranch event demonstrated a big flaw in Militia's SOP and is that they
failed to create an official information source until a week after it started.

An official reporting channel is key absolutely, specially when the opponent is the gov.
Venezuela is a clear example, the gov and media report nothing is going on, but people
using social media like Twitter report the abuse and violence they are suffering.

If shots were fired and the militia guys in there were reduced to turtle food, the gov could
start talking about how the domestic terrorist attacked and they had no other option but
to repel the attack, and manipulate how the history is presented to the public.

Every unconventional force first has to obtain populace support to win, otherwise they will
fail like Guevara in Congo and Bolivia. Part of getting populace support comes from showing
them the flip side of the coin of what mass media feeds them.

A lot of people love to bash Occupy movement, but even if you don't fully agree with Occupy
movement methodologies or ideology, there is always something to learn, specially for a country
like the US, where you like it or not you don't have much experience manifesting against the
government.

Occupy movement guys as soon as they took a place set up free Wi-Fi networks for people to
be able to communicate and report anything that was happening, that is awesome, because
the first thing the gov does is to shut down cell phone networks.

Also in Spain they created something called the "wifineta" that is a conjunction of the words
Wi-Fi and truck in Spanish, that truck has the equipment to provide Wi-Fi and 3G for the people
around it.

Also we need to keep in mind the COMSEC, if there is a centralized information outlet, it
could define what should be public knowledge and what not, and then instruct the protestors
about the information release guidelines.

Check this videos of the Occupy Wi-Fi providing tents.

Valencia.guifi.net en acampada Valencia 15M


A Director for the Free Network Foundation Gives Free WiFI, Advice.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:19:56 AM by APX808 »

Offline crudos

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 01:03:31 PM »
Good stuff APX, you make some very valid points and concerns for moving forward from the Bundy Ranch event.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 05:03:44 PM »
Yep, definitely room for improvement. The problem in today's world is that the guys who are willing to stand up and literally risk their lives in dome cases, aren't really the smart tech guys. The Occupy movement is a crowd FULL of tech geeks. They would die if their Iphone stopped working. They certainly have the media part covered.  Unfortunately they'll never get anything done due to the lack of will to put themselves in physical harms way(getting pepper sprayed so you can tweet about it doesn't count). Kinda makes covering their movement pointless.

If things got serious I think good would prevail regardless of the lack of media coverage. If it got crazy the government would down all electronic avenues of communication anyways. The official site for updates would be down etc a WiFi hotspot in a war zone isnt going to happen.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:09:04 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline APX808

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 05:19:41 PM »
The governments of Syria, Egypt, Venezuela or Iran were unable to stop people from posting pictures and details of what was going on even when they resorted to extreme measures like shutting down completely Internet and they had the services of American companies, like Blue Coat.

And it's not only Wi-Fi I'm talking about, you can use digital modes over radio to transmit images or text.

There is a lot of people putting effort in helping people prepare in not such cool stuff like communications, like Sam Culper at guerrillamerica.com, Sparks at Signal Corps, AMRRON or me with the COMSEC lessons.

People can find excuses to postpone their training or start researching and looking for ways to improve for the next time.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 05:38:09 PM »
The governments of Syria, Egypt, Venezuela or Iran were unable to stop people from posting pictures and details of what was going on even when they resorted to extreme measures like shutting down completely Internet and they had the services of American companies, like Blue Coat.

And it's not only Wi-Fi I'm talking about, you can use digital modes over radio to transmit images or text.

There is a lot of people putting effort in helping people prepare in not such cool stuff like communications, like Sam Culper at guerrillamerica.com, Sparks at Signal Corps, AMRRON or me with the COMSEC lessons.

People can find excuses to postpone their training or start researching and looking for ways to improve for the next time.


I hope you dont think im saying that knowing these things isn't important. Im not really sure what im saying. Comms is the most vital and the most fragile thing in a "revolution".

I just think our government can easily kill all electronic forms of communication if it is beneficial to them. At bundy militia meetings often times everyone was asked to leave their phones at their tents etc. If they are capable of listening to our conversation through an OFF cellphone they certainly can halt any radio transmitted data.

Dont take US government funded revolutions as good examples of the limits of their abilities to shutdown comms. If they want it to stop they CAN stop it.
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 05:47:41 PM »
"Intentional communications jamming is usually aimed at radio signals to disrupt control of a battle. A transmitter, tuned to the same frequency as the opponents' receiving equipment and with the same type of modulation, can, with enough power, override any signal at the receiver. Digital wireless jamming for signals such as Bluetooth and WiFi is possible with very low power.

The most common types of this form of signal jamming are random noise, random pulse, stepped tones, warbler, random keyed modulated CW, tone, rotary, pulse, spark, recorded sounds, gulls, and sweep-through. These can be divided into two groups obvious and subtle."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_jamming
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Offline APX808

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2014, 05:58:27 PM »
Let's worry about having a network for them to jam, and then about jamming.

If you have a centralized information outlet, it could collect media, route it via runners and make it public using the Auxiliary force.
The comm plan should include tools for the people to generate media and share it, a standard reporting format, contingency plans etc.

Fighting in condition of inferiority is the name of the game, the government will always have more powerful tools but not the flexibility of an unconventional force.

Offline crudos

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2014, 08:09:24 PM »
Yep, definitely room for improvement. The problem in today's world is that the guys who are willing to stand up and literally risk their lives in dome cases, aren't really the smart tech guys. The Occupy movement is a crowd FULL of tech geeks. They would die if their Iphone stopped working. They certainly have the media part covered.  Unfortunately they'll never get anything done due to the lack of will to put themselves in physical harms way(getting pepper sprayed so you can tweet about it doesn't count). Kinda makes covering their movement pointless.

If things got serious I think good would prevail regardless of the lack of media coverage. If it got crazy the government would down all electronic avenues of communication anyways. The official site for updates would be down etc a WiFi hotspot in a war zone isnt going to happen.
What you mean facing up against cops in full riot gear doesn't count? I know it's popular to poo-poo Occupy, but they clearly had their shit together in a lot of the big city actions during their heyday. Much more so than the current patriot movement (or whatever we are calling this) could ever hope to do. Some people would be wise to not try and fail to re-invent the wheel.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2014, 09:54:19 PM »
Yep, definitely room for improvement. The problem in today's world is that the guys who are willing to stand up and literally risk their lives in dome cases, aren't really the smart tech guys. The Occupy movement is a crowd FULL of tech geeks. They would die if their Iphone stopped working. They certainly have the media part covered.  Unfortunately they'll never get anything done due to the lack of will to put themselves in physical harms way(getting pepper sprayed so you can tweet about it doesn't count). Kinda makes covering their movement pointless.

If things got serious I think good would prevail regardless of the lack of media coverage. If it got crazy the government would down all electronic avenues of communication anyways. The official site for updates would be down etc a WiFi hotspot in a war zone isnt going to happen.
What you mean facing up against cops in full riot gear doesn't count? I know it's popular to poo-poo Occupy, but they clearly had their shit together in a lot of the big city actions during their heyday. Much more so than the current patriot movement (or whatever we are calling this) could ever hope to do. Some people would be wise to not try and fail to re-invent the wheel.

What specific changes did they affect with their actions?
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2014, 09:56:24 PM »
Let's worry about having a network for them to jam, and then about jamming.

If you have a centralized information outlet, it could collect media, route it via runners and make it public using the Auxiliary force.
The comm plan should include tools for the people to generate media and share it, a standard reporting format, contingency plans etc.

Fighting in condition of inferiority is the name of the game, the government will always have more powerful tools but not the flexibility of an unconventional force.

So first build a house and then make sure its foundation is solid?

Talking about the capabilities of the opposing force is the first step. Then talk about how to build around it.


Physical information runners are a great first brainstorming idea. Get outside the blackout perimeter and then broadcast.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:58:48 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 07:43:44 AM »
 :fuckYeah: a APX! All great comments. Thank you.

The Bundy Ranch Drama, was a great learning forum for both sides. I suspect that the Fed's there have already revised SOP's for this type of Drama while the Pro Bundy folks walked away and patted themselves on the back.

Listen, if you don't build a house on a strong foundation it will collapse in the first earthquake. Lets look at each Drama/Event as building a new house.

I look at communications as the foundation of the Drama because it is three fold.

1) You need the populous to understand and in hopes support the Drama. Even if the populous doesn't support the Drama at least they
    will understand what is happening. Remember, "There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary." (Brendan
    Behan),
2) You need to communicate with the folks involved in the Drama, and
3) You need to give the opposition erroneous or misleading information.

Think about it...If you were to loose one of the legs of this bar stool I call "Communication"; the drinker sitting on it at the bar, will topple over.

I wrote awhile back on SP (StraightPrep) that I attended a OWS (Occupy Wall Street) training event. I went to learn not to support - Boy did I learn things.

Some of the things I learned were:
I)   They have three ring binders in print, complete with pictures and diagrams on how to organize a protest,
II)  They have many binders that outline different types of protests/Drama's,
III) We role-played at the training seminar. Yes the facilitators at the training seminar had a "Train the Trainer" binder, and
IV) The foundation of all of the training at the seminar was communication.

In hindsight, I should of lifted one of the binders  ;)

In past lives, I have written several Procedure & Policy manual (s) and would love to be part of putting together a prototype of a Patriot Binder to help the commanders of future Drama's.

Again APX, thanks for posting your thoughts!  :cheers:

   
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Offline thatGuy

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 11:55:30 AM »
John, you should find the group that put the training on and ask them if they could provide some resources...

APX, fantastic brother. You're on the ball as always.

Ken, COMMs, sanitation and general organization is the foundation of your Op, without those your fucked..

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 03:00:24 PM »
Lol.... alrighty then.....
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Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 03:02:04 PM »
Why the heck did you just parrot me back to myself TG?

Is someone messing with my posts? They look fine on my end. Ive stated the importance of comms a million times.
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Offline Grudgie

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 06:00:05 PM »
I think he is referring to the house foundation analogy. He's saying that actually having comms is the foundation in the analogy.

Offline thatGuy

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 09:08:30 PM »
Damn Grudgie, did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night? 

That is exactly what I meant.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 10:46:02 PM »
Hmmm... ok so ill say it one more time with our house analogy. Comms absolutely is the foundation to any operations. If they are weak then so are the operations. Logically first we should get the foundation right, long before we build a house on it. If we slap down a wifi hotspot and and ham repeater and then frame a house on it and then the foundation is crumbled on day one because we didn't research how to build a reliable foundation, then were fucked.

If fucking smoke signals is the most reliable foundation ill use fucking smoke signals. Ill crawl a mile in the middle of the night with a roll of wire for morris code on my back if thats deemed the best option. But im not doing any of that before I know its going to hold up. I sure as hell am not taking the occupy hippies experiences as proven methods in a totally different scenario as good to go comms plans.

First Google how to pour concrete, then start pouring concrete. Dont start pouring concrete and then say "ah shit its not right, hurry and google how to do this".

That is EXACTLY what went on at bunkerville. Dudes bought radios and showed up with no clue how to use them. They wanted to learn on the fly. It was a disaster.

Dont be this guy:

« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 10:59:15 PM by Kentactic »
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Offline APX808

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 05:10:04 AM »
Yeahh don't use radios because they can be jammed, that's why all the military vehicles these days include carrier pigeons and exhaust pipes pointing upwards to do smoke signals easily  :trolling:

Besides Ken, stop focusing on war zones, there was no war zone at Bundy's ranch, that was just a protest.

Seriously man, let's do one thing show us a proposal of a way to communicate a group of protestors and a group of people defending them using your alternative ways, until now you just disregarded all the suggested and already used by other ways because "the US is too strong and always will find a way to fuck up your plan".

« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 05:20:09 AM by APX808 »

Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 08:14:00 AM »
I feel a pull at my heart to jump in here and just say the following:

Ken I am totally stoked that you went to the Bundy Drama! I am proud that you are a member of UP!! You are one stand-up guy and consider you a friend. I don't call many people friends especially someone I have only talked on the phone with or via emails and forum posts.

The reason why we are throwing around scenarios is because of you. You Ken, got off your butt and were part of a protest in the desert. What is being "brain stormed" here, is how to make things better for you and other folks who follow your lead.

Please do not think we are criticizing your efforts.

Thank you.
   
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Offline rah45

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 08:22:06 AM »
I feel a pull at my heart to jump in here and just say the following:

Ken I am totally stoked that you went to the Bundy Drama! I am proud that you are a member of UP!! You are one stand-up guy and consider you a friend. I don't call many people friends especially someone I have only talked on the phone with or via emails and forum posts.

The reason why we are throwing around scenarios is because of you. You Ken, got off your butt and were part of a protest in the desert. What is being "brain stormed" here, is how to make things better for you and other folks who follow your lead.

Please do not think we are criticizing your efforts.

Thank you.
 

I second this. I've made some posts in other areas regarding this situation, too. I'm not ridiculing you or anything you did, Ken. You did something really great, and put yourself on the line. I respect that.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2014, 08:35:00 AM »
Im not taking anything you guys are saying as ridiculing me personally. 

If were looking to communicate in a simple protest then FRS radios will be fine. Teach everyone to be short, sweet and to the point and go to it. If theres no 4G coverage in the area then setup a wifi hotspot.  Thats my opinion. Its worth what you paid for it.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 08:37:13 AM by Kentactic »
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Offline rah45

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 08:41:08 AM »
Im not taking anything you guys are saying as ridiculing me personally. 

If were looking to communicate in a simple protest then FRS radios will be fine. Teach everyone to be short, sweet and to the point and go to it. If theres no 4G coverage in the area then setup a wifi hotspot.  Thats my opinion. Its worth what you paid for it.

I think it's a good opinion.  :thumbsUp:

I also think that a basic comms course, a one or two day affair like what JMac experienced with Occupy, is necessary for patriots. There needs to be an informal organization that offers a couple of courses a year in each state that teach others about efficient comms using the types of hardware that regular people can actually afford. Methods need to be taught...people can learn their own hardware themselves - there are tons of resources via the internet, and through that, via in-person.

Offline Kentactic

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 09:05:33 PM »
I saw this on Facebook and had to share...


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Offline JohnyMac

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 07:51:07 AM »
Like it Ken...I like it!

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Offline DMCakhunter

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Re: Bundy's ranch information flow thoughts
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2014, 09:49:02 AM »
An Iridium sat phone is another option. Also a Delorme unit that you pair with your cell phone to send texts via Iridium. I won't say un-jammable, but very unlikely.
The original  motorola text communicators for Iridium were way ahead of their time. Too bad they are no longer available.