Unchained Preppers
Off Topic/ B.S. => General Off Topic => Topic started by: JoJo on December 14, 2017, 06:21:45 PM
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I know very little about crypto currency's but what I do know is that copper, silver and gold have been used for currency for thousands of years because they were useful. Copper made swords, pots and other utensils as did silver. Gold made jewelry and other fine things.
A country's wealth was determined by how much of these metals the country had. Paper money was backed by silver or gold until recently then it is backed by a countries promise.
In my opinion Bitcoin has no value what so ever. You can't make anything out of it and no country has given a promise to back it. It is a pyramid scheme. At least the pet rock (remember them) could be used to crush nuts at holiday time.
To make a false story believable you use a tiny bit of truth in it. :dance:
Just my opinion
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I know very little about crypto currency's but what I do know is that copper, silver and gold have been used for currency for thousands of years because they were useful. Copper made swords, pots and other utensils as did silver. Gold made jewelry and other fine things.
A country's wealth was determined by how much of these metals the country had. Paper money was backed by silver or gold until recently then it is backed by a countries promise.
In my opinion Bitcoin has no value what so ever. You can't make anything out of it and no country has given a promise to back it. It is a pyramid scheme. At least the pet rock (remember them) could be used to crush nuts at holiday time.
To make a false story believable you use a tiny bit of truth in it. :dance:
Just my opinion
I agree but people are making money off the stuff, I just cant figure out how? What factors determine the value?
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Most of gold's value comes from the fact that it is a liquid medium of exchange. Otherwise it is shiny rock that can be shaped into pretty objects, or devices that can conduct electricity. Banks do not horde gold for its industrial demand lol.
Bitcoin and other crypto currency just happen to be another medium of exchange that many people find more useful than gold.
I agree but people are making money off the stuff, I just cant figure out how? What factors determine the value?
I have been investing in crypto currency since last year and have made around a 3500% roi since then. Only a few crypto tokens are actually 'currency' of which Bitcoin is the leader. Many more are utility tokens. For example, one crypto coin I own is basically like a stock. It allows you to vote for company management and receive revenue. The price of crypto is determined like anything else, supply and demand.
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Let me put it this way.
Bitcoin is to Gold, as Email is to Letters
If I received an email from someone, I wouldn't say, "This email has no value to me because it isn't made of paper". That would be silly. The value of a paper letter is that it conveys meaning abstractly. An email acomplishes this as well.
It's the same with Bitcoin and gold.
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Problem is that when you turn off the electricity bitcoin becomes unusable. Its a bit difficult to put a bitcoin in my jar under the second post from the left on the back fence.
Nemo
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Let me put it this way.
Bitcoin is to Gold, as Email is to Letters
If I received an email from someone, I wouldn't say, "This email has no value to me because it isn't made of paper". That would be silly. The value of a paper letter is that it conveys meaning abstractly. An email acomplishes this as well.
It's the same with Bitcoin and gold.
If your ROI is ~3500% how do you cash out?
How did you buy in?
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Let me put it this way.
Bitcoin is to Gold, as Email is to Letters
If I received an email from someone, I wouldn't say, "This email has no value to me because it isn't made of paper". That would be silly. The value of a paper letter is that it conveys meaning abstractly. An email acomplishes this as well.
It's the same with Bitcoin and gold.
If your ROI is ~3500% how do you cash out?
How did you buy in?
I bought in through a company called Coinbase. They take a flat 1% fee over spot. I haven't cashed out and I don't plan on it in the near future. If I do cash out it would be through Coinbase again. Or I would buy gold with BTC and sell the gold for dollars.
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Problem is that when you turn off the electricity bitcoin becomes unusable. Its a bit difficult to put a bitcoin in my jar under the second post from the left on the back fence.
Nemo
If electricity goes out your Bitcoin will be safe on the blockchain. In 10 years or less when the power grid is decentralized, this won't be a concern at all.
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I am not for or against BitCoin; However, there are other examples of BitCoin in our past. Some to look into are:
Tulip Mania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania),
South Sea Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Company),
Railway Mania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Mania),
Florida Land Boom/1920's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_land_boom_of_the_1920s),
...to name a few from our past then of course in our lifetime we have had the:
Dot-Com,
Housing,
Et cetera bubbles.
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I agree Johnny Mac. Crypto is in a dotcom style bubble for sure. The crash will be painful. Crypto has had 4 major bubbles in the past. We are still on the way towards mainstream adoption.
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Problem is that when you turn off the electricity bitcoin becomes unusable. Its a bit difficult to put a bitcoin in my jar under the second post from the left on the back fence.
Nemo
If electricity goes out your Bitcoin will be safe on the blockchain. In 10 years or less when the power grid is decentralized, this won't be a concern at all.
What does that mean?
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I only have one question, and I'm not trying to be a smartass, and that question is if Bitcoins and or Crypto Coins are better than money, why would anyone sell you a bitcoin for money and why would they want your money? OK, two questions. Who gets the money? Does your money go into some internet access account that is secret to only you and how do you get it out if the Internet goes down? OK, three questions. Who handles the transaction and do they do it for free? I've been curious about Bitcoins and Cryto Coins but I'm still buying physical Silver because its portable and if everything quits, I still have something of value to trade. I do understand that bitcoins are supposed to be hidden and the Government doesn't know who has what and where it is located. Nothing goes unnoticed by big brother. I've already heard news reports about the Government trying to get involved in controlling and/or accessing Bitcoin accounts. At this point, I'm staying away from nontangable money.
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Problem is that when you turn off the electricity bitcoin becomes unusable. Its a bit difficult to put a bitcoin in my jar under the second post from the left on the back fence.
Nemo
If electricity goes out your Bitcoin will be safe on the blockchain. In 10 years or less when the power grid is decentralized, this won't be a concern at all.
What does that mean?
When solar panels become widespread, more and more homes will produce their own electricity. This mitigates the single points of failure that our current system is prone to.
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I only have one question, and I'm not trying to be a smartass, and that question is if Bitcoins and or Crypto Coins are better than money, why would anyone sell you a bitcoin for money and why would they want your money?
In free markets, people are usually willing to exchange anything for a price. If not, the price adjusts until someone is. It's price discovery.
Who gets the money? Does your money go into some internet access account that is secret to only you and how do you get it out if the Internet goes down?
I don't know what the 'if the internet goes down' part means. People trade cash for crypto currency all the time.
Who handles the transaction and do they do it for free?
Ledgers of who owns what are constantly maintained on thousands of computers across the world. The incentive for people to do this is mining in the case of Bitcoin. Bitcoin miners are rewarded with created Bitcoins for their computer power. There are other methods than mining such as staking that other crypto coins utilize.
I do understand that bitcoins are supposed to be hidden and the Government doesn't know who has what and where it is located. Nothing goes unnoticed by big brother. I've already heard news reports about the Government trying to get involved in controlling and/or accessing Bitcoin accounts. At this point, I'm staying away from nontangable money.
If your Bitcoin address is known, it can be traced on the blockchain. Everyone can see what gets sent where and who owns what. Some cryptos like Monero and Dash are 'anonymous' crypto currencies that can not be traced.
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I just created and currently selling GrizzCoins
These will be more valuable than bitcoins but you need to buy NOW
One GrizzCoin = $1 - How many do you want, I have plenty in stock :thumbsUp:
PM for details
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He and I are now partners. (whether he likes it or not) They are GrizMo coin. Gotta say this will be big. We are letting you guys in on the ground floor.
Nemo
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In my opinion and only my opinion I feel crypto currency was invented to protect the wealth of certain groups of people. People like drug lords, drug dealers, white collar crime and those who want to move large amounts of money without the governments knowing. It was and I still believe it is a criminal organization.
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He and I are now partners. (whether he likes it or not) They are GrizMo coin. Gotta say this will be big. We are letting you guys in on the ground floor.
Nemo
Grizz 99%
Mo 1%
:P :fuckYeah: :cowboy:
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In my opinion and only my opinion I feel crypto currency was invented to protect the wealth of certain groups of people. People like drug lords, drug dealers, white collar crime and those who want to move large amounts of money without the governments knowing. It was and I still believe it is a criminal organization.
Its all part of the clinton foundation, GrizzMoCoins are much more secure :pirateThumbUp:
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Grizz 99%
Mo 1%
:P :fuckYeah: :cowboy:
Hey Hey, we worked out the 60/40 deal. Remember, I do the work and bank runs and get the big part? Remember that?
Nemo :baconDance:
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Grizz 99%
Mo 1%
:P :fuckYeah: :cowboy:
Hey Hey, we worked out the 60/40 deal. Remember, I do the work and bank runs and get the big part? Remember that?
Nemo :baconDance:
ok but only because I like the dancing bacon :thumbsUp:
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If you didn't like dancing bacon you would be disconnected from the internet forever.
Nemo
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What have we been talking about?
Nemo
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/12/22/bitcoin-plunges-25-in-24-hours-in-cryptocurrency-market-rout.html (http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/12/22/bitcoin-plunges-25-in-24-hours-in-cryptocurrency-market-rout.html)
Bitcoin Plunges 25% in 24 Hours in a Cryptocurrency Market Rout
December 22, 2017, Bitcoin Dow Jones Newswires
Bitcoin is creating a massive bubble: 'Wolf of Wall Street' Jordan Belfort
'Way of the Wolf' author Jordan Belfort says the way bitcoin is being traded is a massive bubble and scam.
The price of bitcoin tumbled sharply Friday in Asia, wiping one-fourth of its market value in the past 24 hours alone, as a wave of selling hit the broader cryptocurrency market just before the Christmas holiday weekend.
Bitcoin recently traded at $12,500, according to research site CoinDesk. The notoriously volatile digital currency started December at about $10,000 and traded close to $20,000 this past weekend, but has been in retreat since.
From its recent peak, the virtual currency has lost about $121 billion of its total market value in less than a week, or more than twice the market cap of Tesla.
It wasn't the only currency feeling the pain. Many so-called "altcoins"--shorthand for alternative versions of bitcoin--also declined. And of the 31 digital currencies that have at least a $1 billion market value, 29 were recently down, according to data provider CoinMarketCap.
Ether, the second-biggest digital currency by market value, dropped 26% over the past 24 hours. Another currency called litecoin was down 32%. Its creator, Charlie Lee, said earlier this week that he was selling all his holdings of the currency. Litecoin, whose price hit an all-time high of $375 on Tuesday, recently traded at $229.
Mr. Lee, a former Google engineer who created litecoin in 2011, also warned on Twitter that litecoin was getting "so much mainstream exposure" and that "every crypto bull run I've seen has been followed by a bear cycle."
Digital currencies exploded into the mainstream this year, garnering attention for huge price gains as well as significant swings and drawing scores of investors around the world. The market's price moves starkly contrast with how most traditional asset classes have fared so far this year, such as stocks and bonds, where volatility has been relatively low.
Bitcoin has fallen more than 30% over the past four days, its fifth such decline of that magnitude this year, according to Charlie Bilello, director of research at Pension Partners, an investment-advisory firm in New York. In the prior four instances, it took Bitcoin an average of 38 days to hit a new high.
Bitcoin trading volumes in recent months have been driven to a large extent by investors in South Korea, Japan and other parts of Asia, where digital currencies have gained greater recognition. Rising interest from institutional investors and Wall Street firms have also helped legitimize the currency and contributed to bitcoin's big gains.
Bitcoin futures prices on Cboe Global Markets and CME Group, both of which started trading the contracts earlier this month, were both more than 10% lower on Friday. They were recently pricing in a lower value for the digital currency in the first quarter of 2018 than its current value, a state known in futures markets as "backwardation" and a potentially bearish sign.
A popular alternative currency called Bitcoin Cash has also fallen 40% over the past 24 hours, according to CoinMarketCap. The bitcoin offshoot climbed in value earlier in the week after Coinbase, which operates one of the world's largest cryptocurrency trading platforms, said its users would be able to trade the currency on its systems.
Coinbase, however, has so far had to intermittently halt trading due to insufficient liquidity. The company is also investigating allegations that some of its insiders or their family and friends could have traded Bitcoin Cash ahead of its launch plans.
One outlier is ripple, the third largest digital currency by market value. It has surged 30% in the past 24 hours.
The explosive growth in cryptocurrencies has drawn plenty of skeptics, including central banks, government officials, top bankers and others who think bitcoin is in a bubble that won't end well when it bursts. The Daily Show, a popular late-night, satirical program, ran a segment last week investigating the market's rapid rise.
"There is no way all these people buying cryptocurrencies have any idea what the hell they're investing in," The Daily Show correspondent Ronny Chieng said on the show.
Paul Vigna contributed to this article.
Write to Steven Russolillo at steven.russolillo@wsj.com and Gregor Stuart Hunter at gregor.hunter@wsj.com
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I don’t want to be a shill, but for anyone looking to x5 their money over the next 2-3 years, buy Bitcoin when it goes under $10k. Somewhere around $7k even better. The time to buy is when everyone wants to sell.
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I don’t want to be a shill, but for anyone looking to x5 their money over the next 2-3 years, buy Bitcoin when it goes under $10k. Somewhere around $7k even better. The time to buy is when everyone wants to sell.
My thoughts exactly.
I missed the boat when I had money last year and it was low.
Am resolved not to buy it when its still close(-ish) to its bubble because then I am paying for someone else's profit.
Once it drops back down I may buy.
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Seems like it had a problem and has recovered from that one.
Nemo
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/26/bitcoin-jumps-more-than-12-percent-to-reclaim-16000-level.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/26/bitcoin-jumps-more-than-12-percent-to-reclaim-16000-level.html)
Bitcoin struggles to hold above $16,000; crypto marketplace Coinbase reports transaction delays
The digital currency briefly climbs more than 12.5 percent to above $16,100 late Tuesday morning.
Bitcoin has now recovered more than 50 percent from a low of $10,400 hit Friday in an extremely volatile day of trading.
Coinbase said on its status website at 1:24 p.m., ET, that "Due to high volume, we are experiencing a backlog of outgoing transactions for BTC and ETH. ... Outgoing transactions of BTC and ETH may be delayed by several hours."
Evelyn Cheng | @chengevelyn
Published 10 Hours Ago Updated 2 Hours Ago CNBC.com
After Friday's crash, Bitcoin climbs back above $16,000
Bitcoin climbs back above $16,000
8 Hours Ago | 00:39
Bitcoin rallied Tuesday, recovering from a sharp sell-off late last week.
The digital currency briefly climbed more than 12.5 percent to above $16,100 late Tuesday morning and was trading near $15,965 late in the afternoon, according to Coinbase, the leading U.S. platform for trading major digital currencies.
However, Coinbase said on its status website at 1:24 p.m., ET, that "Due to high volume, we are experiencing a backlog of outgoing transactions for BTC and ETH. ... Outgoing transactions of BTC and ETH may be delayed by several hours."
The issue remained unresolved more than three hours later, according to the website.
With Tuesday's gains, bitcoin has now recovered more than 50 percent from a low of $10,400 hit Friday in an extremely volatile day of trading that had no immediately apparent explanation behind it. Trading on Coinbase was also down for more than two hours during Friday's sell-off.
Nolan Bauerle, director of research at CoinDesk, attributed much of Tuesday's price recovery to improved access to buying cryptocurrencies.
"After last week's sell-off, order books got some breathing room," Bauerle said in an email to CNBC. "Those that wanted to buy at all-time highs suddenly saw discounts and more importantly could actually buy from exchanges that worked through the backlog."
Bitcoin has soared more than 1,600 percent over the last 12 months, according to Coinbase. A surge of investor interest has helped turn the once-fringe item to an object of Wall Street's attention. CME, the world's largest futures exchange, and its competitor Cboe both launched bitcoin futures this month. Many see the launch as a step towards legitimizing bitcoin as an asset class for institutional investors.
The CME bitcoin futures expiring in January settled nearly 11.7 percent higher at $15,785, and the Cboe bitcoin futures settled up 13.3 percent at $15,810. Trading volume in the Cboe January contract was above 2,300, while the CME equivalent was near 2,000, according to their websites.
Ethereum traded 0.6 percent higher near near $770, down about 12.6 percent from its record high of $881.44 hit Thursday, according to CoinMarketCap.
The bitcoin offshoot, bitcoin cash, traded more than 1 percent lower near $2,806, according to Coinbase.
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I saw an article that bitcoin has recovered and gained value. Should be easy to find into but I was bringing this over and just recalled.
Nemo
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/heed-warren-buffetts-warning-bitcoin-is-pure-fomo/ar-BBHmI7q (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/heed-warren-buffetts-warning-bitcoin-is-pure-fomo/ar-BBHmI7q)
Heed Warren Buffett's warning: Bitcoin is pure FOMO
MarketWatch, Mitch Tuchman, 13 hrs ago
To the surprise of nobody, billionaire investor Warren Buffett isn’t interested in bitcoin, the electronic currency that has zoomed higher in value over the past few weeks.
Bitcoin is a complex idea. Simply put, it’s a virtual currency that is created, owned and traded entirely online in anonymous and unregulated settings. In theory, there is a limited number of these physically non-existent digital “coins,” though that limit hasn’t yet been reached. A few years ago, bitcoins were almost worthless; earlier in December, bitcoin’s valued briefly topped $19,000.
Buffett is having none of it. "You can't value bitcoin, because it's not a value-producing asset," he said recently. Earlier, in 2014, when bitcoin was worth much, much less, Buffett said, "Stay away from it. It's a mirage, basically,” adding, “The idea that it has some huge intrinsic value is just a joke, in my view."
So what drives the value of an essentially value-free asset? FOMO — fear of missing out. underline added
The real danger
Who buys a home expecting it to double in value in a year? Who buys an unproven web startup certain that it will disrupt an entire industry in short order?
Think back to the housing bubble and, before that, the dot-com stock bubble. There was a time, early on, when these investments were nearly worthless.
Yet investors pounced on dot-coms and fixer-uppers. They feared missing out on a chance to get rich quickly.
As with dot-coms and real estate, the fuel driving the bitcoin fire is the continual entry of new investors, more and more people motivated by FOMO, fear of missing out. (Remember Beanie Babies? Exactly...)
This can happen to even large stocks, of course. Nearly every asset class has its heady moments. Yet stocks bounce back, over and over, thanks to Buffett’s notion of intrinsic value.
So what is intrinsic value? Imagine you buy stock in a company, say, Coca-Cola.
Huge numbers of people around the world consume Coke products. They pay cash, billions of dollars of cash, to buy and drink it. Whatever the value of drinking Coke might be, millions of people do so every day.
Now subtract the cost of making Coca-Cola, which is sugar, water and a few other ingredients, and you have a real stream of profits.
Waterfall of cash
Intrinsic value is this continuous waterfall of cash. It’s not the stock price of Coke but the actual cash flow of the business, after costs.
Buffett made his billions by divining when the gap is greatest between intrinsic value and a stock’s share price, then buying loads of shares, tickets to real cash flow other investors would want.
Given that bitcoin is supposed to replace cash, what is the ultimate source of cash flow from digital coins created on the internet? It’s dollars flowing from the pockets of buyers who want to own those coins.
Cut off the supply of new investors and the bitcoin craze ends.
The fact is, bitcoin has no intrinsic value at all. While many digital coin “investors” would argue that neither does a dollar, I counter that just about nobody thinks of American cash as an investment, except for perhaps currency speculators.
Rather, dollars are a temporary store of value, a means of transmitting that value from one person to another. As Buffett says, valuing bitcoin is like trying to value a paper check drawn on a bank. Pointless.
“But Mitch,” you might counter, “bitcoin is different. It’s a revolutionary new idea.” Sure, and it’s also an unregulated international marketplace rife with fraudulent actors. Just ask the Securities and Exchange Commission.
There is just one reason that bitcoin’s price currently is hovering around $15,000 rather than zero and that’s FOMO, plain and simple.
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Warren Buffet, with all due respect, is a low IQ fossil. Lol.
Through trading crypto currencies I have accumulated the same inflation adjusted net worth Warren Buffet had at my age if that gives me any credibility. (Yes, argument from authority logical fallacy I know).
Intrinsic value is this continuous waterfall of cash. It’s not the stock price of Coke but the actual cash flow of the business, after costs.
Most assets don't have cash flows. Gold doesn't have cash flow. Neither does fiat currency. Having a cash flow is irrelevant to having a value.
Even if it was, hundreds of crypto tokens do have cash flow. Iconomi and Binance to name two. Iconomi has price/book ratios, quarterly reports, revenue distribution, etc just like any stock.
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As a PREPPER, I can't seem to bring myself to have faith in non-existant money. To me its like stockpiling non-existant food.
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As a PREPPER, I can't seem to bring myself to have faith in non-existant money. To me its like stockpiling non-existant food.
I agree. :fuckYeah:
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As a PREPPER, I can't seem to bring myself to have faith in non-existant money. To me its like stockpiling non-existant food.
It exists. But I understand the prepper perspective. If you truly feel all the lights will go out one day and stay out for a long period of time, then BTC will be worthless in that situation.
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As a PREPPER, I can't seem to bring myself to have faith in non-existant money. To me its like stockpiling non-existant food.
I agree. :fuckYeah:
:baconDance:
Nemo