Using Steel Plates and Bullet Fragmentation

[Grudgie]

This:

1 million fps Slow Motion video of bullet impacts made by Werner Mehl from Kurzzeit

I am going to get some steel plates for my carrier and this little problem with the bullets fragmenting on steel is bugging me. I thought of an idea and am looking for your opinons. What if I wrapped the plate in a layer or two of Ballistic Kevlar? You can buy it by the yard on Ebay here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Yard-60-Wide-Kevlar-KM2-850-Denier-Enhanced-Ballistic-Fabric-/290769388806?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b334c506

I am thinking a lose wrapping of Kevlar would eliminate most of the harmful fragments. It wouldn't need to be thick as most of the bullet's energy is expelled forward onto the plate and backer. Thoughts?

[thatGuy]

Just get a Class III soft panel to put in front of it buddy.

But you really need to rethink this brother, the Ceramic plates catch rounds like no ones business. The name of the game isn't stopping rounds it's catching so they can't go anywhere else and fuck you or your people up.

Look at the video you posted man, how would you like to take one to the chest all Superman and have your wife/child/father/mother/buddy/dog get some of that?

[Kentactic]

Plus what about angled shots. i know lots of my bullets have went flying off steel. that might mean into your arm, throat, leg, or anywhere on any one of your buddies. I cant imagine carrying the weight required to stop rifle rounds with steel on me.

[Grudgie]

I'm still in the 'sway' phase of deciding between ceramic and steel. The way I figure it, cosidering a fully loaded plate carrier can be around 25-30 pounds, what is 6 pounds difference? A lot of people are using AK47s and steel AK mags that weigh 2 pounds a pop  (Mrlockandload for instance) and it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. Especially since the weight is evenly distributed front and back. But like I said, most people seem to advocate ceramics so I will look into this over the next few days.

[Kentactic]

I'm still in the 'sway' phase of deciding between ceramic and steel. The way I figure it, cosidering a fully loaded plate carrier can be around 25-30 pounds, what is 6 pounds difference? A lot of people are using AK47s and steel AK mags that weigh 2 pounds a pop  (Mrlockandload for instance) and it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. Especially since the weight is evenly distributed front and back. But like I said, most people seem to advocate ceramics so I will look into this over the next few days.

Well maybe your well aware of your abilitys but incase your not. Have you actually ran around with a bunch of weight on? When i picture me wearing steel plates that weigh 30-40lbs i picture them either in the dirt 100 yards from the starting point or me in the dirt 1 mile from the starting point. Im no commando though thats for sure.

[thatGuy]

I'm no commando either, I just hike a lot and the weight does add up. Sure you can carry it but you can't carry much else but it.

The more lightweight your kit is the more you can carry in it.

Think about having to E&E with just your plates, ifak and a couple of mags. Wouldn't being able to add a poncho for the same weight poncho and a woobie go a long way to make that better?

[Reaver]

I'm still in the 'sway' phase of deciding between ceramic and steel. The way I figure it, cosidering a fully loaded plate carrier can be around 25-30 pounds, what is 6 pounds difference? A lot of people are using AK47s and steel AK mags that weigh 2 pounds a pop  (Mrlockandload for instance) and it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. Especially since the weight is evenly distributed front and back. But like I said, most people seem to advocate ceramics so I will look into this over the next few days.

Ounces lead to pounds brother.

If I where to wear armor It would be a light steel insert, but I'm not wearing armor so I have no say here. I know I have worn armor and that shit sucks.

[gapatriot]

Steel is heavy, armor causes problems in general when moving. If you run it go with light weight HDPE plates.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[goodnightChesty1775]

thats why i got an extra small plate carrier at my RFI draw, those damn plates dont weigh shit!!  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[technique]

The thing about soft backers or soft Kevlar is that it is designed to catch what made it through your Ceramic but more importantly, it's just a pillow between you and the plate. It softens the blow.

The Ceramic absorbs the round entirely most of the time. Anything that might make it through is traveling much slower.

Putting that on the outside, the round is going to zip right through it and the larger frag will likely zip right back out.
The Kevlar will likely only catch the smaller fragments.

[Grudgie]

I have heard you all and have decided to go with steel. However I am not pleased. I have been looking into different kinds of ballistic plates and am not impressed with ceramics or steel. I feel the market and ballistic resistant technology has a way to go and hopefully with America's semi-capitalistic gun market better technology will be developed in the future. I will be watching closely.

I am not impressed enough with ceramic's weight reduction to justify the cost. Hell, my weight fluxuates more than 5 pounds. Instead of paying extra money I will try to get back down to my pre-Marine Corps weight of 140 pounds which will make up for the added weight of the steel. This on top of not putting uneeded junk on my plate carrier like knives, compasses, radios, night vision, food, and flash lights.

Like I said I am not impressed with steel either. This is only temporary. I figure I will get a chest rig so I have the option of going armoured or light.

The plates I am looking at are right here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290750790068?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619

Two 10x12 plates weighing 7.4 pounds each and a pair of 6x6 side plates weighing 2.3 pounds each. He says he formed the plates with 4 curves just like Ceramics.

This calls for some serious PT with the armour on to develop some shoulder and back stamina.

[Grudgie]

Here's a pictuer of the curve:

[thatGuy]

That is better than 20 pounds of plate...

It's a bad call Grudgie. Do what you are going to do but know it is a bad call.

[Kentactic]

With AR500 you could probably have the plate be half as thick and still stop almost any rifle caliber in the world. Thats a thick ass plate. 50 bmg point blank will dent the shit out of it but i doubt it would penetrate it. Id shoot it once to make sure im not lugging pointless weight. If its mild steel its worthless. If its AR500 it will barely do anything at all at close range with 5.56 .

[goodnightChesty1775]

damn 20 lbs plus ammo, water, kit and mission specific shit....fuck no

[Reaver]

 [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

[NOLA556]

I'm probably the least experienced here when it comes to armor, but here's my .02

I don't plan on picking fights in WROL. I know I know, sometimes you just stumble into it. but my point is, I'd go ceramic simply because I don't feel like I'll need the ability to take hit after hit after hit.... I'd like to have something to protect me from that little prick that takes a pot-shot when I'm completely unaware of his presence, but I'm not preparing to defend a fixed position for any length of time. I'm not going to be hanging out in the turret of any hummers in hostile territory. you catch my drift.

so rather than debate weight vs. lifespan vs. ergonomics vs. fragmentation, I choose to allow my general defense philosophy make the decision for me. If your ass isn't behind some cover before your aggressor connects multiple shots to your chest then you're pretty well fucked anyway.

[Grudgie]

I don't plan to get in any fights in WROL either, however, my plate carrier isn't intended to be used in WROL. I'm not naming any names here but I feel a certian tyrannical government is starting to push its boundaries a little to far. Our founders of our government and the authors of the Constitution intended us the people to be the militia agianst tyranies. Any Tyranny. The second ammendment does not declare a right to own guns, but a right to own arms. My plate carrier is built for WAR agianst conventional forces. Not mere survival.

And I am not advocating anyone to revolt agianst their government just so we all know. But sometimes, you have to be a man and follow your concious and not the law. Such was the case that brought about our great United States to begin with.

damn 20 lbs plus ammo, water, kit and mission specific shit....fuck no

I know it sucks. I don't want to lug around the 19 pounds anymore than the next guy, but it's only 19 pounds as compared to the 14 that lvl3 ceramics would weigh. Everyone I know is always complaining about that extra weight but sureley most of us have a little extra 5 pounds of fat we could lose.

[Grudgie]

I was browsing through TheHossUSMC's videos and saw that he had a steel plate test video:

Steel Plate Testing (pt1)

In the video a 6x8 plate takes an xm855, multiple 7.62x39, a 1 oz 12 gauge slug, and two .338 Lapua hits spaced about an inch apart. Nothing penetrated it. I'm sorry, but the cost and the amazing lvl 4(?) rating, steel can not be beat right now. If the people in that video are so concerned about plate weight I think they might do better to be a little more concerned about their own weight. Like I said, it is only a 6-7 pound increase.

Also, in part 2 of the video the AK malfunctions on the first shot requiring a field strip. And then a different shooter using a different AK fires and the AK dust cover and optic flys off the reciever. Not a good video for the AK I must say.

[thatGuy]

Yeah, it is a great AKs in their prime video but....

Please quit trying to convince people that you are making a good decision when it is obvious that you are not. We've tried to talk you out of it but you are a grown man and you will make your own decisions, I understand that.

You must understand that someone might read this thread and think what you are doing is ok. Someone who knows so little that they will fall for the argument of "what's a couple of pounds?"

To make this bad decision for yourself is one thing, to influence another to follow you off the same cliff is morally reprehensible.

[Grudgie]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here granted I have never run around with any kind of plates on. I have hiked 10 miles with 40 pounds and a rifle running and screaming the entire way and I know that 7 pounds would not have mattered much. It is my opinion that unless you have a 10% body fat percentage you don't have the right to critisize anyone's gear weight. I'm not saying you don't have a 10%, I'm just saying it's like a man telling me smoking is bad for you while he is eating a Big Mac and large fries.

[technique]

Steel plates are stupid.

[NOLA556]

Steel plates are stupid.

lol... 

[Grudgie]

I'm going to see what I can do about asking the guy to make it 3/16 inch instead of 4/16 which should trim the weight down to 5.5 Pounds from 7.4. But I would have to test if the steel is severely diminished because of it.

[thatGuy]

As an experiment why don't you try the same thing with 33 pounds in your pack?

For the record I am 13% body fat and I will walk damn near anyone of you into the ground if you ever wanna give it a try.