Reflective Thoughts from this Weekends Recon & Surveillance Class

[JohnyMac]

As I sit here in my lounge chair looking out the window and watching the snow blow past the window side wise I am pondering about this past three days in North Carolina. As many of you know I spent the weekend at NCScouts Recon & Surveillance class. I will post a full AAR once the ibuprofen and caffeine kicks in; However, I wanted to write down these thoughts in no particular order before this 63 old mind wanders off to another project. Here goes...

1) A three man team can be incredible effective recon, surveillance, and guerilla type offensive operations.
2) A suppressor on the end of ones primary can be a great equalizer.
3) One three man team linked with another three man team covering a zone of interest, is a force to be reckoned with. 
4) No matter how carefully you walk outside, you always leave spore.
5) While ALL camouflage clothing helps to conceal you, not all camouflage clothing is good for all terreane even if the tererrain is within ones AO. Add
    to that statement - What works well during the day may not work at night.
6) A smile at the right time can work wonders for moral.
7) For an old fart I am above average when it comes down to being physical fit. With that little commercial written, you need to match your PT not to
    just general PT but to specific PT to what you are going to do to survive. For patrolling the wilds of your AO think and train for what you will be
    actually doing like - Squats. Not just squats in your living room, which is a great way to start but squats on uneven wet, dry, snowing ground. Then
    do it geared up.
' Communication, communication, and then communication. Those who communicate win.
9) Ask questions. Make suggestions. If you have nothing to add, SHUT UP and listen.
10) Cool crap like NOD's and FLIR are great equalizers. If you could only afford one today, go with the FLIR.
11) Be the guy who first...Starts the fire. Boils the first pot of water. Polices up the area. Generally lend a hand. You get the idea. Being first is
      contagious.
12) Tie EVERYTHING down! That's why para-cord was invented.

I will add more to this list of musing's or pondering's as they come to mind.

As already written above, I will post a complete AAR once I warm up.
 

[patriotman]

As I sit here in my lounge chair looking out the window and watching the snow blow past the window side wise I am pondering about this past three days in North Carolina. As many of you know I spent the weekend at NCScouts Recon & Surveillance class. I will post a full AAR once the ibuprofen and caffeine kicks in; However, I wanted to write down these thoughts in no particular order before this 63 old mind wanders off to another project. Here goes...

1) A three man team can be incredible effective recon, surveillance, and guerilla type offensive operations.
2) A suppressor on the end of ones primary can be a great equalizer.
3) One three man team linked with another three man team covering a zone of interest, is a force to be reckoned with. 
4) No matter how carefully you walk outside, you always leave spore.
5) While ALL camouflage clothing helps to conceal you, not all camouflage clothing is good for all terreane even if the tererrain is within ones AO. Add
    to that statement - What works well during the day may not work at night.
6) A smile at the right time can work wonders for moral.
7) For an old fart I am above average when it comes down to being physical fit. With that little commercial written, you need to match your PT not to
    just general PT but to specific PT to what you are going to do to survive. For patrolling the wilds of your AO think and train for what you will be
    actually doing like - Squats. Not just squats in your living room, which is a great way to start but squats on uneven wet, dry, snowing ground. Then
    do it geared up.
' Communication, communication, and then communication. Those who communicate win.
9) Ask questions. Make suggestions. If you have nothing to add, SHUT UP and listen.
10) Cool crap like NOD's and FLIR are great equalizers. If you could only afford one today, go with the FLIR.
11) Be the guy who first...Starts the fire. Boils the first pot of water. Polices up the area. Generally lend a hand. You get the idea. Being first is
      contagious.
12) Tie EVERYTHING down! That's why para-cord was invented.

I will add more to this list of musing's or pondering's as they come to mind.

As already written above, I will post a complete AAR once I warm up.

Johny and I suffered together this weekend, and let me add on a few quick points.

13) Also, use zip ties to secure your molle gear on.
14) Never use open bottom holsters in inclement weather.
15) To add on to Johny's point about PT, when stalking or conducting recon you need to move slowlyyyyyyyyyyyy and deliberately. I recommend working on your balance as well as some single leg squats because you need to step slowly and thus hold your weight on one leg.
16) Thank god Wynn took the initiative for the fire.
17) I double support #9
18) If you have a three man team that knows what they are doing and trains together, it is an incredible force multiplier.

As Johnny said, I will also add as things come to mind. I am doing a gear deconstruction to note what worked and what didn't. Lucky for me, I am taking the same class in NJ with Scout in April so I get to try my modifications to see if they are an improvement - of course, after I do a test at JMac's place in March

[JohnyMac]

Hey Patriotman, is the April class filled up? Some folks in the North East may want to go.

On another note: If I can get 12 men or women to sign up for NCScouts Recon & Surveillance class toi be held in the NE PA, drop post your interest here. Need 12-folks.

[mechmedic]

Just depends on the date! Gotta balance all my schedules.

[JohnyMac]

Understandable mechmedic 

First lets get a list of folks who are interested. Once done we will narrow down several dates and then go to NCScout to see which one works for him and his family.

I just know there is a bunch of folks out there that just don't have the time to make a 9-12 hour drive to N. Carolina.

Thanks

[patriotman]

Hey Patriotman, is the April class filled up? Some folks in the North East may want to go.

On another note: If I can get 12 men or women to sign up for NCScouts Recon & Surveillance class toi be held in the NE PA, drop post your interest here. Need 12-folks.

As far as I know it is. Here is the link.

http://www.njdft.net/events/communications-scouting/

You know you can +1 for me for that class. I can only learn more taking it a third time

[JohnyMac]

Hey Patriotman, doing it here in the free state of PA., you can go FULL Battle Rattle. 

[Jackalope]

I'm interested, it would depend upon the dates.  After August, it would be easier to take the class some where down south. 

[CJS06]

Understandable mechmedic 

First lets get a list of folks who are interested. Once done we will narrow down several dates and then go to NCScout to see which one works for him and his family.

I just know there is a bunch of folks out there that just don't have the time to make a 9-12 hour drive to N. Carolina.

Thanks

Johny Mac- I am very interested! Once you have an idea of the approx dates please let me know. I will hold off on booking some other training I have been looking at. As of right now I have an April class in NM and an early May class in NH, otherwise I am open and looking forward to this type of class.

Chris

[JohnyMac]

Cool beans Chris. This class is right up your angle.

Great group of guys most former military or current/retired LEO's. NCScout is a natural trainer... Not the best cook though 

He made a stew for Saturday night. Rather than use 6 cups of rice for the starch part of the stew which would have been appropriate, he poured 5 pounds of rice into the caldron. LOL.

[patriotman]

Cool beans Chris. This class is right up your angle.

Great group of guys most former military or current/retired LEO's. NCScout is a natural trainer... Not the best cook though 

He made a stew for Saturday night. Rather than use 6 cups of rice for the starch part of the stew which would have been appropriate, he poured 5 pounds of rice into the caldron. LOL.

LOL yeah just a little bit of an overestimation  those bear and venison steaks were good eating though...

[patriotman]

Hey Patriotman, is the April class filled up? Some folks in the North East may want to go.

On another note: If I can get 12 men or women to sign up for NCScouts Recon & Surveillance class toi be held in the NE PA, drop post your interest here. Need 12-folks.

As far as I know it is. Here is the link.

http://www.njdft.net/events/communications-scouting/

You know you can +1 for me for that class. I can only learn more taking it a third time

There are four spots left as per the email I just got. Just FYI

[JohnyMac]

For you folks from MD. to NY and east of NJ - Take advantage of this class! It will be well worth your time.

[Nemo]

Note on class mentioned above.

Its in New Jersey.  DO NOT, Under any circumstances or situation take a firearm or bullet into that state.

Nemo

http://www.njdft.net/events/communications-scouting/
     

Event Location
Venue:   Cobra 1 Tactical

Address:
330 US Highway 46, Great Meadows, NJ, US, 07838

[patriotman]

Note on class mentioned above.

Its in New Jersey.  DO NOT, Under any circumstances or situation take a firearm or bullet into that state.

Nemo

http://www.njdft.net/events/communications-scouting/
     

Event Location
Venue:   Cobra 1 Tactical

Address:
330 US Highway 46, Great Meadows, NJ, US, 07838

Only if it is Jersey legal. And no hollowpoints! If you have a bolt action, bring it along as you will be good to go. The guy also said that there is the possibility of having some M4 Airsoft trainers to use.

When transporting firearms in New Jersey, gun and ammo need to be separate. Best way to do it - gun locked in trunk, ammo in a locked ammo box in the back seat.

[JohnyMac]

I do not know about NJ but I know this is the law in Mass. and NY.

In your locked case, have a printed description of the class you are attending and dates of said class. Just copy the original class description from Brushbeater site and dates page. 

So weapon legal. Ruger mini-14 without a flash suppressor or pinned suppressor is legal. Or any manually manipulated
   long gun. 
Magazine legal. Ten rounds or less. Former 30-round mags are fine as long it is pinned at 10-rounds.
No handguns. As much as you would love to try out all of your gear I would leave my handgun at home.
No ammo needed for this class so leave that at home. We all had full magazines however, never fired a round. I kitted out
   complete, as I wanted to test my patrol kit. No ammo will just make your kit lighter. 

Keep in mind this is NOT a shooting class. It is a class about the basics of scouting, recon, and surveillance. I highly suggest it to everyone, no matter your skill level. ESPECIALLY, for you folks that did not have these jobs while in the military.

Patriotman, if I am off base with NY law about firearms please correct me.   

[patriotman]

I do not know about NJ but I know this is the law in Mass. and NY.

In your locked case, have a printed description of the class you are attending and dates of said class. Just copy the original class description from Brushbeater site and dates page. 

So weapon legal. Ruger mini-14 without a flash suppressor or pinned suppressor is legal. Or any manually manipulated
   long gun. 
Magazine legal. Ten rounds or less. Former 30-round mags are fine as long it is pinned at 10-rounds.
No handguns. As much as you would love to try out all of your gear I would leave my handgun at home.
No ammo needed for this class so leave that at home. We all had full magazines however, never fired a round. I kitted out
   complete, as I wanted to test my patrol kit. No ammo will just make your kit lighter. 

Keep in mind this is NOT a shooting class. It is a class about the basics of scouting, recon, and surveillance. I highly suggest it to everyone, no matter your skill level. ESPECIALLY, for you folks that did not have these jobs while in the military.

Patriotman, if I am off base with NY law about firearms please correct me. 

You are most certainly not off base. The magazine law is important to pay attention to because 1) it is now 10 and not 15, and 2) the magazine has to be permanently fixed at 10.

Excellent point on the ammo - I was talking in general, but you are right in saying that we do not do any shooting so we can leave that at home. I am personally transporting my handgun (no ammo) in the manner I described, but the out of staters may do well to heed Johnny's warning.

I recommend not bring your AR as I guarantee you it is not Jersey legal - if you have a pistol grip and a detachable mag, you cannot have 1) a collapsible stock (must be pinned), a bayonet lug (this has greatly decreased the rash of bayonetings we had), and a flash suppressor OR a threaded barrel. So you need a non-threaded barrel or just a pinned A2 birdcage that is pinned and welded to the barrel.

[Nemo]

And I would have to go through Maryland to get there.  With my window stickers thats a pull me over at gunpoint and search me request.

Nemo

[patriotman]

And I would have to go through Maryland to get there.  With my window stickers thats a pull me over at gunpoint and search me request.

Nemo

Ya, you are better off waiting for a course in North Carolina.

[JoJo]

 When I lived in the police state of New Jersey you could only carry your locked up in the trunk fire arm to and from the range with out any stops in between.
 I would guess that is still the case.

[patriotman]

When I lived in the police state of New Jersey you could only carry your locked up in the trunk fire arm to and from the range with out any stops in between.
 I would guess that is still the case.

The actual law is slightly more nuanced:

Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.

https://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-firearm.shtml
So, can you stop for gas? Yes. Does it mean you can stop at a restaurant? Technically not. It is completely subjective to the whim of the officers (and, if necessary, a judge) what is "reasonably necessary".

Because I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo and don't have a true trunk, I have to lock both containers and then I separate them - one in the way back, one in the back seat.

[CJS06]

I would not be focused on the transportation through areas like NJ as much as I would be more cautious of what can and can not be legally possessed in the state. As Johny Mac posted earlier types of guns, features and capacities need to be followed in whichever state you are attending a class in.

Transporting of firearms or specifically the "rumors" about "what will happen" are a bugaboo of mine.  Maybe it is because I live in the Northeast and can not travel anywhere without passing through unfriendly states. Any time that you transport through said state you are fine if you are transiting from one friendly state to another and are not stopping for any period of time. Of course getting fuel is ok, as is food as long as it is not off of a reasonable route to your destination. You can stop at a hotel or motel if the drive is to a destination that is longer than a reasonable time to safely drive continuously. This of course gets more subjective so a key reason I don't drive to events that are more than a 1 day destination (I have previously multiple times).   The situations that you need to be aware of is if you are in a collision and your vehicle is damaged. Then it is very helpful to have information about where you are going such as posted official class or competition literature with registration proof (printed email).  I have driven through Mass, CT, NY, NJ many times with never an issue.  Dont drive like an asshole or at excessive speeds, that is what draws attention of law enforcement, not what stickers you have.  Of course you should always transport your guns in locked cases separate from any ammo in an area that is inaccessible to the driver while traveling. Not all states require it but locking ammo up separately is just good sense and it is generally better to be overly safe than find out you should have been.

Flying is another similar case. I hear more absolutely bad info regarding flying with firearms, usually from someone that heard it from someone....that heard it from someone, or from the interwebz. I fly regularly through Logan airport in Boston with guns that are absolutely illegal in Mass. I keep them locked in cases (no TSA Locks), transport them from home directly to the airport, to the counter where I declare that I am flying with firearms, check my bags/guns, and then off to the gate like everyone else. When landing the only difference is guns need to be retrieved from the luggage office not from the bag conveyor where you need to show ID to get them. I have had more than a few ver peasant conversations with Mass Troopers while standing waiting for the shuttle to my vehicle.....and imagine I have never had even a sent of an issue. 

It is 100% legal to transport firearms, even those illegal in a given state, through that state to a location that does not terminate in that state. If your end destination is at all in that state then you are subject to the laws of what is permitted in that state. If you do not have a CCW that is legal in that state then you must keep your firearms locked up properly. You need to be doing something to cause attention to be drawn to you! Even in NJ the State Police do not have a super secret gun detector that they are employing to pull you over to hassle you/ bust you.

I live in RI and have been to classes or comps in ME, NH, VT, MA, PA, VA, NC, GA, FL, TN, OH, IL, IN, NE, MI, TX, UT, AZ, NM, WY, ID, NV and OR.  In general my rule is if I can drive there in a day or less that is what I do, otherwise I fly (now more to do with added time to a trip). This has me traveling through the worst of the unfriendly states (MA, CT, NY, NJ, MD) fairly regularly. Also as a way of cutting down on hassle I have taken to shipping my ammo prior to traveling so that it arrives a day or two ahead of me. Any reputable training should be able to provide you with a secure location that you can ship your ammo to.

I do not take classes in CT,NY or NJ specifically because of the laws of the states regarding magazines and guns allowed into the state. I dont own much that is legal for me to use in their states. In MA, as long as I am using them at an organized training or competition I can use my otherwise illegal items.

By all means do not go by what I am writing here as your guide. It is simple, call the state police of the jurisdiction you are concerned with. Talk to them civilly and find out what they are concerned with or require. Get your own info and take your own responsibility.  That is how I did it and continue to if I am going to or through and area I am not familiar with.

Sorry about getting off track from the original post. I am looking forward to getting a chance to get into a Brushbeater class soon with some of the members here.

Chris

[JohnyMac]

Great write-up CJS06!

May I add one thing to this comment you made...

By all means do not go by what I am writing here as your guide. It is simple, call the state police of the jurisdiction you are concerned with. Talk to them civilly and find out what they are concerned with or require. Get your own info and take your own responsibility.  That is how I did it and continue to if I am going to or through and area I am not familiar with.

I do not use the "call comment" I email or write a snail mail note. The reason, I have a hard copy of their response. I learned this from MA. top LEO concerning firearms in the state.

LT. so and so, I forget her name, told me this during our first and only voice communication. From then one we only exchanged emails. She also asked me that I include a copy of our communication in the locked gun case so if a rookie trooper with a USMC buzz-cut did pull me over and made me open my locked case, her correspondence with me can be used not unlike garlic against a vampire.

The ONLY STATES I ever worry about driving through with locked up, unloaded weapons, of all types, is NJ & MD.

[patriotman]

Great write-up CJS06!

May I add one thing to this comment you made...

By all means do not go by what I am writing here as your guide. It is simple, call the state police of the jurisdiction you are concerned with. Talk to them civilly and find out what they are concerned with or require. Get your own info and take your own responsibility.  That is how I did it and continue to if I am going to or through and area I am not familiar with.

I do not use the "call comment" I email or write a snail mail note. The reason, I have a hard copy of their response. I learned this from MA. top LEO concerning firearms in the state.

LT. so and so, I forget her name, told me this during our first and only voice communication. From then one we only exchanged emails. She also asked me that I include a copy of our communication in the locked gun case so if a rookie trooper with a USMC buzz-cut did pull me over and made me open my locked case, her correspondence with me can be used not unlike garlic against a vampire.

The ONLY STATES I ever worry about driving through with locked up, unloaded weapons, of all types, is NJ & MD.

Your worst drivethrough is my life 

I would not be focused on the transportation through areas like NJ as much as I would be more cautious of what can and can not be legally possessed in the state. As Johny Mac posted earlier types of guns, features and capacities need to be followed in whichever state you are attending a class in.

Transporting of firearms or specifically the "rumors" about "what will happen" are a bugaboo of mine.  Maybe it is because I live in the Northeast and can not travel anywhere without passing through unfriendly states. Any time that you transport through said state you are fine if you are transiting from one friendly state to another and are not stopping for any period of time. Of course getting fuel is ok, as is food as long as it is not off of a reasonable route to your destination. You can stop at a hotel or motel if the drive is to a destination that is longer than a reasonable time to safely drive continuously. This of course gets more subjective so a key reason I don't drive to events that are more than a 1 day destination (I have previously multiple times).   The situations that you need to be aware of is if you are in a collision and your vehicle is damaged. Then it is very helpful to have information about where you are going such as posted official class or competition literature with registration proof (printed email).  I have driven through Mass, CT, NY, NJ many times with never an issue.  Dont drive like an asshole or at excessive speeds, that is what draws attention of law enforcement, not what stickers you have.  Of course you should always transport your guns in locked cases separate from any ammo in an area that is inaccessible to the driver while traveling. Not all states require it but locking ammo up separately is just good sense and it is generally better to be overly safe than find out you should have been.

The transportation piece definitely needs to be paid attention to  because while Christie was good with pardoning out of state people who messed this up, Murphy will not be. But as you correctly state, don't drive like an asshole and you won't get pulled over. The piece about accidents is an excellent point though, and yet another reason to make sure everything is in order during transportation. As for your food piece, I am too scared to try that. The most I have done is get a Hurricane at DQ after the range.

Flying is another similar case. I hear more absolutely bad info regarding flying with firearms, usually from someone that heard it from someone....that heard it from someone, or from the interwebz. I fly regularly through Logan airport in Boston with guns that are absolutely illegal in Mass. I keep them locked in cases (no TSA Locks), transport them from home directly to the airport, to the counter where I declare that I am flying with firearms, check my bags/guns, and then off to the gate like everyone else. When landing the only difference is guns need to be retrieved from the luggage office not from the bag conveyor where you need to show ID to get them. I have had more than a few ver peasant conversations with Mass Troopers while standing waiting for the shuttle to my vehicle.....and imagine I have never had even a sent of an issue.

 

I have never flown with firearms so I cannot comment on that.

It is 100% legal to transport firearms, even those illegal in a given state, through that state to a location that does not terminate in that state. If your end destination is at all in that state then you are subject to the laws of what is permitted in that state. If you do not have a CCW that is legal in that state then you must keep your firearms locked up properly. You need to be doing something to cause attention to be drawn to you! Even in NJ the State Police do not have a super secret gun detector that they are employing to pull you over to hassle you/ bust you.

People have been given grief for this in New Jersey, so readers should be wary of that.