Author Topic: How ice ages happen.  (Read 563 times)

Offline JoJo

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How ice ages happen.
« on: October 07, 2019, 01:10:35 PM »
 This video is for those who belong to the religion of global warming. It's global cooling!!! :sarcasm:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA788usYNWA
In principle, no less than in practice, socialism is the ideology of thieves and tyrants.

Offline JoJo

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Re: How ice ages happen.
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2019, 06:21:08 PM »
 Here's more real science on climate change. In response to

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/10/environmentalist-shellenberger-go-nuclear-save-the-planet/


Another red pill, in case one is needed:

The fact is, there has been global warming, but the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is necessarily so small as to be all but undetectable. Here's why:

Carbon dioxide, considered the main vector for human-caused global warming, is some 0.04% of the atmosphere by volume, or some 400 parts per million (ppm)[1]. Water vapor varies from 0% to 4% by volume[2], and so should easily average above 1%[3] near the Earth’s surface, where the greenhouse effect would be most important, and is about three times more effective[4] a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. So water vapor is some 25 times more prevalent and three times more effective; that makes it some 75 times more important to the greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide[5]. The TOTAL contribution of carbon dioxide to the greenhouse effect is therefore 0.013 or less.

Since the start of the industrial revolution, carbon dioxide is estimated to have risen from 280 ppm to the current approximately 400 ppm. Even if the entire increase were the result of human emissions - which is by no means certain, given uncertainty about how much CO2 is produced by natural sources such as decomposition of biomass and carbonate rock, volcanism and the little-understood ocean-atmosphere exchange - the total human contribution to atmospheric carbon dioxide would be about 0.3 of the total. Therefore human carbon dioxide adds at most only 0.0039 of the greenhouse effect, and may well be less.

Total warming of the Earth by the greenhouse effect is widely accepted as about 33 degrees Centigrade (which is equal to 59 degrees Fahrenheit), raising average temperature to 15 degrees Centigrade, or 59 degrees above zero Fahrenheit. So the contribution of anthropogenic carbon dioxide is at most 0.23 degrees Fahrenheit, or at most 0.13 degree Centigrade, and perhaps considerably less. Global warming since the beginning of the industrial revolution is thought by many to be perhaps 0.8 to1.0 degree Centigrade.

But that's only the beginning. We've had global warming for more than 10,000 years, since the end of the last Ice Age, and there is evidence temperatures were actually somewhat warmer 9,000 years ago and again 4,500 to 8,000 years ago than they are today[6]. Whatever caused that, it was not human activity. It was not all those power plants and factories and SUVs being operated by Stone Age cavemen while chipping arrowheads out of bits of flint. Whatever the cause was, it melted the glaciers that in North America once extended south to Long Island and parts of New York City[7] into virtually complete disappearance (except for a few mountain remnants). That's one big greenhouse effect! If we are still having global warming - and I suppose we could presume we are, given this more than 10,000 year history - it seems highly likely that it is still the overwhelmingly primary cause of continued warming, rather than our piddling 0.0039 contribution to the greenhouse effect.

Yet even that trend-continuation today needs to be proved. Evidence is that the Medieval Warm Period centered on the 1200s was somewhat warmer than we are now[8], and the climate was clearly colder in the Little Ice Age in the 1600s than it is now[9]. (Whether the earlier Roman Warm Period around the time of Christ was as warm or was warmer than present is less clear.) So we are within the geologically recent range of normal up-and-down fluctuations without human greenhouse contributions that could be significant, or even measurable.

Principal scientists arguing for human-caused global warming have been demonstrably disingenuous[10], and now you can see why. They have proved they should not be trusted.

The idea that we should be spending trillions of dollars and hamstringing the economy of the entire world to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is beyond ludicrous in light of the facts above; it is insane. Furthermore, it sucks attention and resources from seeking the other sources of warming and from coping with climate change and its effects in realistic ways. The true motivation underlying the global warming movement is almost certainly ideological and political in nature, and I predict that Anthropogenic Global Warming, as currently presented, will go down as the greatest fraud of all time. It makes Ponzi and Madoff look like pikers by comparison.

[1] Mauna Loa Observatory https://www.co2.earth/daily...

[2] Fundamentals of Physical Geography, 2nd Edition

by Micheal Pidwirney Concentration varies slightly with the growing season in the northern hemisphere. HYPERLINK http://www.physicalgeograph...

[3] The Earth’s tropics, the so-called “Torrid Zone,” where temperatures and therefore the capacity of the atmosphere to hold water vapor are at their highest, and where the 4% maximum is found, comprise a far greater portion of the Earth’s surface - 40% - than do the areas where water vapor content is at its lowest, the polar areas (8%), and the world’s deserts (10%). Moreover, the troposphere, which contains 99% of the world’s water vapor, is far deeper at the equator (10-12 miles) than near the poles (4 to 6 miles), enabling substantially more water vapor retention in the tropics even if other factors were equal rather than favoring more water retention rather than less. I have chosen an arbitrarily low working figure of 1% to give the AGW argument the benefit of any doubt. The higher the actual figure is above that, the lower must be the actual contribution of carbon dioxide, and therefore of anthropogenic carbon dioxide. If the true figure is 2%, the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is half that shown.

[4 NIST Chemistry Webbook, Please compare the IR absorption spectra of water and carbon dioxide. ] HYPERLINK "http://webbook.nist.gov/" http://webbook.nist.gov/

[5] Three quarters of the atmosphere and virtually all water vapor are in the troposphere. Including all the atmosphere would change the ratios to about 20 times more prevalent and 60 times more effective. However, the greenhouse effect of high-altitude carbon dioxide on lower-altitude weather and the earth’s surface seems likely to be extremely small if not nil, given that heat rises and high-altitude gases would also intercept relevant frequencies of solar radiation before they reach the earth.

[6] Encyclopedia Britannica - Holocene Environment and Biota, et al. https://www.britannica.com/... for early holocene. See also History of Earth’s Climate, Ch. 7, Brett Hansen http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-... The citation here is of the English translation, which contains minor grammatical errors that do not materially affect content.

[7]The Narrows Flood – Post-Woodfordian Meltwater Breach of the Narrows Channel, NYC Charles Merguerian https://www.geo.sunysb.edu/... p. 2, et al.

[8] Britannica, same section https://www.britannica.com/... for historical period: Roman and Medieval Warm Periods also History of Earth’s Climate, Ch. 7, Brett Hansen http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-...

[9] Encyclopedia Britannica - Little Ice Age

https://www.britannica.com/...

[10] Wikileaks: Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2009 HYPERLINK "http://wikileaks.org/wiki/C..." http://wikileaks.org/wiki/C....

See also HYPERLINK "http://www.dailymail.co.uk/..." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/... and

HYPERLINK "http://online.wsj.com/artic..." http://online.wsj.com/artic... and, more diplomatically: HYPERLINK "http://www.nytimes.com/2009..." http://www.nytimes.com/2009.... Et al.

ADDENDUM

What initially troubled me, years ago, was the aberrant behavior of the climate research unit at East Anglia University, which had been the main data source for AGW arguments. They initially refused(!) to reveal their algorithms and data on the grounds that they were proprietary(!!). They responded to critics with ad hominem attacks and efforts to block their publication in scientific journals. Now, as I am sure you know, this is not how one does honest science, in which you PUBLISH your data and methodology and invite critical comment to ferret out error or oversights. It took the now-famous Wikileaks "Climategate" to pry loose the data and expose their machinations. Yet despite the devastating blow these revelations should have to their credibility, the AGW "cause" has taken on a life of its own.

Fundamentally, the argument seems to rest on a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc - after this, therefore because of this. We see a rise in temperature and a rise in (principally) carbon dioxide, and therefore conclude one must have caused the other. It does not necessarily follow at all. There can be other causes entirely behind both phenomena, and as you see above, almost certainly there are. Beyond that, I have encountered numerous assertions of fact that cannot add up given the physical properties of water vapor and carbon dioxide that go unchallenged. One-sided arguments proliferate and people arguing the other side are frequently denounced as being employed by business interests rather than rebutted on the merits.

In sum, I have not come lightly to the conclusion that the AGW argument as it applies to carbon dioxide is largely untrue and certainly does not account for more than a very small, nearly negligible part of the phenomena we are seeing. The implications of widespread assertions of and belief in such an untruth are staggering, and potentially enormously destructive. It is unwise indeed to let oneself be stampeded in this matter, and stampede is clearly what many have been and are trying to induce.

I can understand politicians behaving this way; a carbon tax or carbon trading regime would allow enormous revenues to fall into their hands. I can understand "Progressive" ideologues; it logically leads to enormous expansion of government power over industry, the economy, and the daily life of individuals, which they regard as a good thing. I understand the environmentalists; they want to shrink the size and impact on the environment of modern civilization. But responsible citizens need to put aside such considerations when drawing conclusions.

Please feel free to copy this essay and post it wherever you think it may do some good. The more people who understand this the better.

Another red pill, in case one is needed:

The fact is, there has been global warming, but the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is necessarily so small as to be all but undetectable. Here's why:

Carbon dioxide, considered the main vector for human-caused global warming, is some 0.04% of the atmosphere by volume, or some 400 parts per million (ppm)[1]. Water vapor varies from 0% to 4% by volume[2], and so should easily average above 1%[3] near the Earth’s surface, where the greenhouse effect would be most important, and is about three times more effective[4] a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. So water vapor is some 25 times more prevalent and three times more effective; that makes it some 75 times more important to the greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide[5]. The TOTAL contribution of carbon dioxide to the greenhouse effect is therefore 0.013 or less.

Since the start of the industrial revolution, carbon dioxide is estimated to have risen from 280 ppm to the current approximately 400 ppm. Even if the entire increase were the result of human emissions - which is by no means certain, given uncertainty about how much CO2 is produced by natural sources such as decomposition of biomass and carbonate rock, volcanism and the little-understood ocean-atmosphere exchange - the total human contribution to atmospheric carbon dioxide would be about 0.3 of the total. Therefore human carbon dioxide adds at most only 0.0039 of the greenhouse effect, and may well be less.

Total warming of the Earth by the greenhouse effect is widely accepted as about 33 degrees Centigrade (which is equal to 59 degrees Fahrenheit), raising average temperature to 15 degrees Centigrade, or 59 degrees above zero Fahrenheit. So the contribution of anthropogenic carbon dioxide is at most 0.23 degrees Fahrenheit, or at most 0.13 degree Centigrade, and perhaps considerably less. Global warming since the beginning of the industrial revolution is thought by many to be perhaps 0.8 to1.0 degree Centigrade.

But that's only the beginning. We've had global warming for more than 10,000 years, since the end of the last Ice Age, and there is evidence temperatures were actually somewhat warmer 9,000 years ago and again 4,500 to 8,000 years ago than they are today[6]. Whatever caused that, it was not human activity. It was not all those power plants and factories and SUVs being operated by Stone Age cavemen while chipping arrowheads out of bits of flint. Whatever the cause was, it melted the glaciers that in North America once extended south to Long Island and parts of New York City[7] into virtually complete disappearance (except for a few mountain remnants). That's one big greenhouse effect! If we are still having global warming - and I suppose we could presume we are, given this more than 10,000 year history - it seems highly likely that it is still the overwhelmingly primary cause of continued warming, rather than our piddling 0.0039 contribution to the greenhouse effect.

Yet even that trend-continuation today needs to be proved. Evidence is that the Medieval Warm Period centered on the 1200s was somewhat warmer than we are now[8], and the climate was clearly colder in the Little Ice Age in the 1600s than it is now[9]. (Whether the earlier Roman Warm Period around the time of Christ was as warm or was warmer than present is less clear.) So we are within the geologically recent range of normal up-and-down fluctuations without human greenhouse contributions that could be significant, or even measurable.

Principal scientists arguing for human-caused global warming have been demonstrably disingenuous[10], and now you can see why. They have proved they should not be trusted.

The idea that we should be spending trillions of dollars and hamstringing the economy of the entire world to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is beyond ludicrous in light of the facts above; it is insane. Furthermore, it sucks attention and resources from seeking the other sources of warming and from coping with climate change and its effects in realistic ways. The true motivation underlying the global warming movement is almost certainly ideological and political in nature, and I predict that Anthropogenic Global Warming, as currently presented, will go down as the greatest fraud of all time. It makes Ponzi and Madoff look like pikers by comparison.

[1] Mauna Loa Observatory https://www.co2.earth/daily...

[2] Fundamentals of Physical Geography, 2nd Edition

by Micheal Pidwirney Concentration varies slightly with the growing season in the northern hemisphere. HYPERLINK http://www.physicalgeograph...

[3] The Earth’s tropics, the so-called “Torrid Zone,” where temperatures and therefore the capacity of the atmosphere to hold water vapor are at their highest, and where the 4% maximum is found, comprise a far greater portion of the Earth’s surface - 40% - than do the areas where water vapor content is at its lowest, the polar areas (8%), and the world’s deserts (10%). Moreover, the troposphere, which contains 99% of the world’s water vapor, is far deeper at the equator (10-12 miles) than near the poles (4 to 6 miles), enabling substantially more water vapor retention in the tropics even if other factors were equal rather than favoring more water retention rather than less. I have chosen an arbitrarily low working figure of 1% to give the AGW argument the benefit of any doubt. The higher the actual figure is above that, the lower must be the actual contribution of carbon dioxide, and therefore of anthropogenic carbon dioxide. If the true figure is 2%, the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is half that shown.

[4 NIST Chemistry Webbook, Please compare the IR absorption spectra of water and carbon dioxide. ] HYPERLINK "http://webbook.nist.gov/" http://webbook.nist.gov/

[5] Three quarters of the atmosphere and virtually all water vapor are in the troposphere. Including all the atmosphere would change the ratios to about 20 times more prevalent and 60 times more effective. However, the greenhouse effect of high-altitude carbon dioxide on lower-altitude weather and the earth’s surface seems likely to be extremely small if not nil, given that heat rises and high-altitude gases would also intercept relevant frequencies of solar radiation before they reach the earth.

[6] Encyclopedia Britannica - Holocene Environment and Biota, et al. https://www.britannica.com/... for early holocene. See also History of Earth’s Climate, Ch. 7, Brett Hansen http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-... The citation here is of the English translation, which contains minor grammatical errors that do not materially affect content.

[7]The Narrows Flood – Post-Woodfordian Meltwater Breach of the Narrows Channel, NYC Charles Merguerian https://www.geo.sunysb.edu/... p. 2, et al.

[8] Britannica, same section https://www.britannica.com/... for historical period: Roman and Medieval Warm Periods also History of Earth’s Climate, Ch. 7, Brett Hansen http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-...

[9] Encyclopedia Britannica - Little Ice Age

https://www.britannica.com/...

[10] Wikileaks: Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2009 HYPERLINK "http://wikileaks.org/wiki/C..." http://wikileaks.org/wiki/C....

See also HYPERLINK "http://www.dailymail.co.uk/..." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/... and

HYPERLINK "http://online.wsj.com/artic..." http://online.wsj.com/artic... and, more diplomatically: HYPERLINK "http://www.nytimes.com/2009..." http://www.nytimes.com/2009.... Et al.

ADDENDUM

What initially troubled me, years ago, was the aberrant behavior of the climate research unit at East Anglia University, which had been the main data source for AGW arguments. They initially refused(!) to reveal their algorithms and data on the grounds that they were proprietary(!!). They responded to critics with ad hominem attacks and efforts to block their publication in scientific journals. Now, as I am sure you know, this is not how one does honest science, in which you PUBLISH your data and methodology and invite critical comment to ferret out error or oversights. It took the now-famous Wikileaks "Climategate" to pry loose the data and expose their machinations. Yet despite the devastating blow these revelations should have to their credibility, the AGW "cause" has taken on a life of its own.

Fundamentally, the argument seems to rest on a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc - after this, therefore because of this. We see a rise in temperature and a rise in (principally) carbon dioxide, and therefore conclude one must have caused the other. It does not necessarily follow at all. There can be other causes entirely behind both phenomena, and as you see above, almost certainly there are. Beyond that, I have encountered numerous assertions of fact that cannot add up given the physical properties of water vapor and carbon dioxide that go unchallenged. One-sided arguments proliferate and people arguing the other side are frequently denounced as being employed by business interests rather than rebutted on the merits.

In sum, I have not come lightly to the conclusion that the AGW argument as it applies to carbon dioxide is largely untrue and certainly does not account for more than a very small, nearly negligible part of the phenomena we are seeing. The implications of widespread assertions of and belief in such an untruth are staggering, and potentially enormously destructive. It is unwise indeed to let oneself be stampeded in this matter, and stampede is clearly what many have been and are trying to induce.

I can understand politicians behaving this way; a carbon tax or carbon trading regime would allow enormous revenues to fall into their hands. I can understand "Progressive" ideologues; it logically leads to enormous expansion of government power over industry, the economy, and the daily life of individuals, which they regard as a good thing. I understand the environmentalists; they want to shrink the size and impact on the environment of modern civilization. But responsible citizens need to put aside such considerations when drawing conclusions.

Please feel free to copy this essay and post it wherever you think it may do some good. The more people who understand this the better.

 
Quote
Another red pill, in case one is needed:

The fact is, there has been global warming, but the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is necessarily so small as to be all but undetectable. Here's why:

Carbon dioxide, considered the main vector for human-caused global warming, is some 0.04% of the atmosphere by volume, or some 400 parts per million (ppm)[1]. Water vapor varies from 0% to 4% by volume[2], and so should easily average above 1%[3] near the Earth’s surface, where the greenhouse effect would be most important, and is about three times more effective[4] a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. So water vapor is some 25 times more prevalent and three times more effective; that makes it some 75 times more important to the greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide[5]. The TOTAL contribution of carbon dioxide to the greenhouse effect is therefore 0.013 or less.

Since the start of the industrial revolution, carbon dioxide is estimated to have risen from 280 ppm to the current approximately 400 ppm. Even if the entire increase were the result of human emissions - which is by no means certain, given uncertainty about how much CO2 is produced by natural sources such as decomposition of biomass and carbonate rock, volcanism and the little-understood ocean-atmosphere exchange - the total human contribution to atmospheric carbon dioxide would be about 0.3 of the total. Therefore human carbon dioxide adds at most only 0.0039 of the greenhouse effect, and may well be less.

Total warming of the Earth by the greenhouse effect is widely accepted as about 33 degrees Centigrade (which is equal to 59 degrees Fahrenheit), raising average temperature to 15 degrees Centigrade, or 59 degrees above zero Fahrenheit. So the contribution of anthropogenic carbon dioxide is at most 0.23 degrees Fahrenheit, or at most 0.13 degree Centigrade, and perhaps considerably less. Global warming since the beginning of the industrial revolution is thought by many to be perhaps 0.8 to1.0 degree Centigrade.

But that's only the beginning. We've had global warming for more than 10,000 years, since the end of the last Ice Age, and there is evidence temperatures were actually somewhat warmer 9,000 years ago and again 4,500 to 8,000 years ago than they are today[6]. Whatever caused that, it was not human activity. It was not all those power plants and factories and SUVs being operated by Stone Age cavemen while chipping arrowheads out of bits of flint. Whatever the cause was, it melted the glaciers that in North America once extended south to Long Island and parts of New York City[7] into virtually complete disappearance (except for a few mountain remnants). That's one big greenhouse effect! If we are still having global warming - and I suppose we could presume we are, given this more than 10,000 year history - it seems highly likely that it is still the overwhelmingly primary cause of continued warming, rather than our piddling 0.0039 contribution to the greenhouse effect.

Yet even that trend-continuation today needs to be proved. Evidence is that the Medieval Warm Period centered on the 1200s was somewhat warmer than we are now[8], and the climate was clearly colder in the Little Ice Age in the 1600s than it is now[9]. (Whether the earlier Roman Warm Period around the time of Christ was as warm or was warmer than present is less clear.) So we are within the geologically recent range of normal up-and-down fluctuations without human greenhouse contributions that could be significant, or even measurable.

Principal scientists arguing for human-caused global warming have been demonstrably disingenuous[10], and now you can see why. They have proved they should not be trusted.

The idea that we should be spending trillions of dollars and hamstringing the economy of the entire world to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is beyond ludicrous in light of the facts above; it is insane. Furthermore, it sucks attention and resources from seeking the other sources of warming and from coping with climate change and its effects in realistic ways. The true motivation underlying the global warming movement is almost certainly ideological and political in nature, and I predict that Anthropogenic Global Warming, as currently presented, will go down as the greatest fraud of all time. It makes Ponzi and Madoff look like pikers by comparison.

[1] Mauna Loa Observatory https://www.co2.earth/daily...

[2] Fundamentals of Physical Geography, 2nd Edition

by Micheal Pidwirney Concentration varies slightly with the growing season in the northern hemisphere. HYPERLINK http://www.physicalgeograph...

[3] The Earth’s tropics, the so-called “Torrid Zone,” where temperatures and therefore the capacity of the atmosphere to hold water vapor are at their highest, and where the 4% maximum is found, comprise a far greater portion of the Earth’s surface - 40% - than do the areas where water vapor content is at its lowest, the polar areas (8%), and the world’s deserts (10%). Moreover, the troposphere, which contains 99% of the world’s water vapor, is far deeper at the equator (10-12 miles) than near the poles (4 to 6 miles), enabling substantially more water vapor retention in the tropics even if other factors were equal rather than favoring more water retention rather than less. I have chosen an arbitrarily low working figure of 1% to give the AGW argument the benefit of any doubt. The higher the actual figure is above that, the lower must be the actual contribution of carbon dioxide, and therefore of anthropogenic carbon dioxide. If the true figure is 2%, the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is half that shown.

[4 NIST Chemistry Webbook, Please compare the IR absorption spectra of water and carbon dioxide. ] HYPERLINK "http://webbook.nist.gov/" http://webbook.nist.gov/

[5] Three quarters of the atmosphere and virtually all water vapor are in the troposphere. Including all the atmosphere would change the ratios to about 20 times more prevalent and 60 times more effective. However, the greenhouse effect of high-altitude carbon dioxide on lower-altitude weather and the earth’s surface seems likely to be extremely small if not nil, given that heat rises and high-altitude gases would also intercept relevant frequencies of solar radiation before they reach the earth.

[6] Encyclopedia Britannica - Holocene Environment and Biota, et al. https://www.britannica.com/... for early holocene. See also History of Earth’s Climate, Ch. 7, Brett Hansen http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-... The citation here is of the English translation, which contains minor grammatical errors that do not materially affect content.

[7]The Narrows Flood – Post-Woodfordian Meltwater Breach of the Narrows Channel, NYC Charles Merguerian https://www.geo.sunysb.edu/... p. 2, et al.

[8] Britannica, same section https://www.britannica.com/... for historical period: Roman and Medieval Warm Periods also History of Earth’s Climate, Ch. 7, Brett Hansen http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-...

[9] Encyclopedia Britannica - Little Ice Age

https://www.britannica.com/...

[10] Wikileaks: Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2009 HYPERLINK "http://wikileaks.org/wiki/C..." http://wikileaks.org/wiki/C....

See also HYPERLINK "http://www.dailymail.co.uk/..." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/... and

HYPERLINK "http://online.wsj.com/artic..." http://online.wsj.com/artic... and, more diplomatically: HYPERLINK "http://www.nytimes.com/2009..." http://www.nytimes.com/2009.... Et al.

ADDENDUM

What initially troubled me, years ago, was the aberrant behavior of the climate research unit at East Anglia University, which had been the main data source for AGW arguments. They initially refused(!) to reveal their algorithms and data on the grounds that they were proprietary(!!). They responded to critics with ad hominem attacks and efforts to block their publication in scientific journals. Now, as I am sure you know, this is not how one does honest science, in which you PUBLISH your data and methodology and invite critical comment to ferret out error or oversights. It took the now-famous Wikileaks "Climategate" to pry loose the data and expose their machinations. Yet despite the devastating blow these revelations should have to their credibility, the AGW "cause" has taken on a life of its own.

Fundamentally, the argument seems to rest on a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc - after this, therefore because of this. We see a rise in temperature and a rise in (principally) carbon dioxide, and therefore conclude one must have caused the other. It does not necessarily follow at all. There can be other causes entirely behind both phenomena, and as you see above, almost certainly there are. Beyond that, I have encountered numerous assertions of fact that cannot add up given the physical properties of water vapor and carbon dioxide that go unchallenged. One-sided arguments proliferate and people arguing the other side are frequently denounced as being employed by business interests rather than rebutted on the merits.

In sum, I have not come lightly to the conclusion that the AGW argument as it applies to carbon dioxide is largely untrue and certainly does not account for more than a very small, nearly negligible part of the phenomena we are seeing. The implications of widespread assertions of and belief in such an untruth are staggering, and potentially enormously destructive. It is unwise indeed to let oneself be stampeded in this matter, and stampede is clearly what many have been and are trying to induce.

I can understand politicians behaving this way; a carbon tax or carbon trading regime would allow enormous revenues to fall into their hands. I can understand "Progressive" ideologues; it logically leads to enormous expansion of government power over industry, the economy, and the daily life of individuals, which they regard as a good thing. I understand the environmentalists; they want to shrink the size and impact on the environment of modern civilization. But responsible citizens need to put aside such considerations when drawing conclusions.

Please feel free to copy this essay and post it wherever you think it may do some good. The more people who understand this the better.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 06:24:19 PM by JoJo »
In principle, no less than in practice, socialism is the ideology of thieves and tyrants.

Offline Kbop

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Re: How ice ages happen.
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2019, 08:10:35 PM »
Cool,
a couple of observations.

for scale, on earth, radiative forcing in watts per square meter of received heat on the surface of the earth, averaged, is about 340 watts per square meter. as mentioned in the article, that equates to 0 degrees F of average surface temperature.
-
Effects of solar irradiance during the Milankovitch cycles, including the Maunder minimum are about minus 0.1 to minus 0.2 watts per square meter.
-
The effects of volcanic dust and sulfur dioxide – as measured from the Mount Pinatubo eruption - about minus 0.4 watts per square meter at its peak.
- just to show the magnitude of solar radiation flux vs the atmospheric effects.
-
The actual measured effects of CO2, currently, is about plus 2.0 watts per square meter.  The last 100ppm of CO2 hasn't been felt by the climate system yet - there is a delay of about a decade for the full effect to come on.  The reason this is important is the difference between an ice age - nice and comfy (now) - and swamps at the south pole is only a few degrees.
-
The volcanic cooling effect washes out of the atmosphere is a few years - CO2 takes hundreds of years.
-
a couple of historic reference points.
the heat signal put off by a large volcanic eruption (the dust and sulfur dioxide) was proximal to
the little ice age - probably Krakatau.
a bit later was the year without a summer - probably Tambora.
-
so the thing to consider that that Moanaloa observatory curve is showing the rate of climb - the math says its only a few degrees C - but look at what happened during the late medieval little ice age or medieval warming.  it only takes a little nudge to make the system swing - call it a tipping point.  now consider that the volcanic cooling is an order of magnitude less than the green house gasses warming effects.

so - a change of minus 1 watt will push us into an ice age.  no extra watts will keep us where we are, climate wise.  we are already plus 1.5 watts of non human warming and 0.5 watts of human warming and climbing - we are heading for plus 1 watt more by 2050.   its just math.

a quick summation and one last observation - the climate is changing.  the macro effects are predictable.  doesn't matter the politics or cause - its happening.  Its time to prepare for it.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 09:25:40 PM by Kbop »

Offline pkveazey

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Re: How ice ages happen.
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2019, 11:12:06 PM »
There was a massive amount of info in those posts. For the CO2 people, there is only one question to ask them. What happens if we stop ALL of the Carbon Dioxide emissions? Even the naturally occurring ones? The Earth is a lot smarter than we are. The earth regulates the Oxygen level between 19% and 21%. It really likes 20% Oxygen. When CO2 levels rise, plants grow like crazy and produce Oxygen. When CO2 levels drop, plants stop growing. Hmmmmmm……. If we could stop all CO2 emissions, crops wouldn't grow and the animals would die and then we all would starve to death. Tomorrow is SLAP A GLOBAL WARMING WHACKO DAY.

Offline Kbop

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Re: How ice ages happen.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 12:45:05 AM »
There was a massive amount of info in those posts. For the CO2 people, there is only one question to ask them. What happens if we stop ALL of the Carbon Dioxide emissions? Even the naturally occurring ones? The Earth is a lot smarter than we are. The earth regulates the Oxygen level between 19% and 21%. It really likes 20% Oxygen. When CO2 levels rise, plants grow like crazy and produce Oxygen. When CO2 levels drop, plants stop growing. Hmmmmmm……. If we could stop all CO2 emissions, crops wouldn't grow and the animals would die and then we all would starve to death. Tomorrow is SLAP A GLOBAL WARMING WHACKO DAY.


can i suggest reading a book on paleobotany?  It would provide a context to the various climate/ecosystem interactions.  I would recommend 'Vascular Plants and Paleobotany'  but there are several good ones out there.

if the O2 levels climb much above 20% wild fires burn, pretty much out of control in the dry season - and then the CO2 level rises and the local climates start to cool (caused mostly by the particulates in the air) - this type of cycle turned the forests in West Central Africa into savanna - similar events occurred in the Taiga.

when the CO2 rises, it gets warmer and more humid - of course plants grow more/faster- C4 types especially, i mostly call them weeds, not very nutritious.

if humans stop all CO2 fossil fuel emissions, i can infer that the Earth would survive just fine - plants were here long before the naked apes were.  stopping all CO2 emissions would not be within humans ability - so i'm calling that question hyperbolic and academic.

I've tried to engage in reasoned discussion - if i'm wasting your time and your intent is to simply rant, or you  have zero respect for your fellow members on this forum, or at least those who don't virtue signal your pseudo religious beliefs - please let me know and i'll stop trying to discuss them with you. 
You could get out of your safe echo-chamber and actually engage, read, learn, debate.
Or, you can go to your nearest school and start attacking the natural science teachers.
Tomorrow is SLAP A GLOBAL WARMING WHACKO DAY.

one or the other i guess.
 :coffeeNews:

Offline JoJo

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Re: How ice ages happen.
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 10:21:22 AM »
Quote
Tomorrow is SLAP A GLOBAL WARMING WHACKO DAY.

 My guess he's talking about the "Sky is Falling" people. You know who they are the ones that say "We only have ten years before the world goes KABOOM" Types. The give me your money and I will fix it people.
In principle, no less than in practice, socialism is the ideology of thieves and tyrants.