Unchained Preppers

General Category => Gear Review => Topic started by: JohnyMac on April 22, 2018, 10:33:20 PM

Title: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on April 22, 2018, 10:33:20 PM: I am seriously shopping for a suppressor thanks to some great suggestions from CJS, off-line. I actually found a guy about a mile away that has 30+ experience in this accessory.

He spent 3+ hours today screwing 'cans' on my AR15 and firing them along with a few of his 7.62 rifles. I now know less now then when I started this trek. :facepalm:

I applaud this guys efforts BUT my head is spinning.

Once I was totally confused and ready to leave , he pulled out of his safe some nice selective fire rifles that I would NEVER be able to afford. Anyway, it was an education.

Thinking 5.56, I tried some suppressors that were long and some that were short. I tried some that weighed 10-ish oz. while others were in the 22-ish oz. zone. I tried some that were designed for hunting (10-12 rounds every 10 minutes or so) and some for auto-fire.

I was shown and fired some with nasty blow/gas-back while other had minimal to none. I heard some that sounded loud with low a decibel rating's while others had higher decibel rating but sounded quieter. :facepalm:

None of these required the use of electronic muffs as all of them were quite enough not to turn on the muffs. With that all written, the Silencerco was the loudest to my ear/rifle yet it had a very good decibel rating - Go figure,

One suppressor we screwed on the Rem. 700 and you could hear the firing pin hit the cartridge but then the round coming out of the barrel was of course faster than sound so you heard a CRACK!

OMG, my head is spinning! So much to pick from. The great thing was that with a few exceptions, e.g, like titanium, they were all less than a $1K.

CJS suggested I look at a DeathAir or a NG2. Well the Deathair is the teats and this guy just got set up with NG2 so he didn't have a demo to try; However, the overall selection is mindbogglingly.

Then there is how you attach the 'can' to your barrel which is a totally different animal.

Anyway, he was surprised at how well my Colt 6920 LEO handled all of the cans we screwed on her. Overall, probably put 30 rounds through her and the bolt was as clean as when I started out the day. He was shocked as "old gas" driven AR's I guess have a reputation for getting dirty fast with a can.

Anyhow, I will share with the group, my journey acquiring my first suppressor.

On another note: IF your state allows them, please think about acquiring one. Nothing better than shooting without muffs on.

:gunner:
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: CJS06 on April 23, 2018, 10:27:54 AM: Johny

Definitely keep us informed as you go through the process.

Two things I spent a lot of time looking at when deciding were back pressure and mounting.

1. Back pressure- most cans cause an increase in pressure in the system. This leads to a couple of nasty results. First the increase in pressures causes increased and excessive wear on your rifle. Your rifle will cycle much more violently with a perceptible difference. There are ways to help mitigate this such as adjustable gas blocks or adjustable bolt carriers. Second is a significant increase in gasses to the shooter. Breathing that in continuously is not good for you, especially if you are using it with high round count drills/days. Third is the amount of dirt (carbon) into the gun. Shoot a 500 rd day un-suppressed then a 500 rd day suppressed and you will see just how much dirtier your gun gets, not just the BCG, but the trigger group, chamber, hell everywhere.

2. Mount- Cans tend to come in 2 styles, direct thread or some form of QD that works with a muzzle device. The most ideal for function of the can is direct thread. If you want to use the suppressor on multiple guns you will want to go with a QD variant. This comes down to wants v needs for what will be best for you.

I did not focus purely on sound suppression for two reasons. As you mentioned some better rated cans still seemed louder than the not as highly rated. Also I want the can to reduce the sound signature to make it more comfortable to shoot for myself and those I shoot with, not trying to be movie silent.

As you mentioned the 2 that I have found that I like the most are the NG2 Maxflo and the Deadair line of suppressors. I settled on the Deadair Sandman K for a couple of reasons. It is short and relatively light so does not add significantly to the end of my rifles. I sacrificed a bit of noise mitigation to excellent flow through with significantly less back pressure than a number of other similar cans. It is a .30cal can that I use primarily on my 5.56 rifles but I can also use it with my 300 blk and .308 if I chose to. The mount also played a large part in my decision. It is a positive lock up that also is easily removed and not hard to clean up. I have a bunch of experience with Surefire cans. They are strong, reliable and relatively quiet, cut they have higher back pressure and I am not a fan of having to shoot my can off of the muzzle after high round counts. If I had a higher percentage of shorter barreled rifles I would have gone with the Sandman S, but for my guns the K model has been ideal.

I will own an NG2 Maxflo soon. It is a direct thread which is the key reason I decided against it initially. I needed the ability to go from rifle to rifle. The NG2 is a truly 0 back pressure can with very very good sound mitigation. I shot one for a 3 day scoped carbine class in Utah last December. There was no additional gas to the face, and my BCG was as clean as shooting unsuppressed through approx 600 rds a day. I plan on setting up my 18" gun with the NG2 once circumstance make that viable.

Chris
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on April 23, 2018, 11:19:06 AM: Thank you CJS! :thumbsUp:

All good stuff.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: grizz on April 23, 2018, 02:22:31 PM: there is another option, the oil can suppressor. This is a male/female connection the screws onto your barrel and then you buy an oil filter to screw onto the other end. From the youtube videos I've watched it was very impressive.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: CJS06 on April 23, 2018, 04:12:22 PM: Quote from: grizz on April 23, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
there is another option, the oil can suppressor. This is a male/female connection the screws onto your barrel and then you buy an oil filter to screw onto the other end. From the youtube videos I've watched it was very impressive.
And very illegal, If you want to go suppressed, do it the right way. Having a "solvent trap" on your rifle will get you time for owning an illegal homemade silencer under NFA. Is playing that game worth the time, cost and losing rights to own any firearms in the future.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: grizz on April 23, 2018, 04:50:21 PM: Quote from: CJS06 on April 23, 2018, 04:12:22 PM
Quote from: grizz on April 23, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
there is another option, the oil can suppressor. This is a male/female connection the screws onto your barrel and then you buy an oil filter to screw onto the other end. From the youtube videos I've watched it was very impressive.
And very illegal, If you want to go suppressed, do it the right way. Having a "solvent trap" on your rifle will get you time for owning an illegal homemade silencer under NFA. Is playing that game worth the time, cost and losing rights to own any firearms in the future.

Last I heard they were selling them as suppressors and you still need to get the tax stamp
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Currahee on April 23, 2018, 04:58:22 PM: Quote from: grizz on April 23, 2018, 04:50:21 PM
Quote from: CJS06 on April 23, 2018, 04:12:22 PM
Quote from: grizz on April 23, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
there is another option, the oil can suppressor. This is a male/female connection the screws onto your barrel and then you buy an oil filter to screw onto the other end. From the youtube videos I've watched it was very impressive.
And very illegal, If you want to go suppressed, do it the right way. Having a "solvent trap" on your rifle will get you time for owning an illegal homemade silencer under NFA. Is playing that game worth the time, cost and losing rights to own any firearms in the future.

Last I heard they were selling them as suppressors and you still need to get the tax stamp

The adapter is a serial numbered part that can be stamped and perfectly legal. IITC the problem with them is they have a very limited shot life with center fire calibers.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Currahee on April 23, 2018, 05:06:07 PM: I have a bunch of friends with cans and have built my own on form 1s.

I won't get into specific brands but make a couple of general statements.

If you want it for run and gun type stuff, the decibel differences between major brands is not that big of a deal, you just want it hearing safe. You want a secure QD mount and the lightest, shortest can you can get. This is magnified exponentially if you are putting it on a 16" rifle. If you want it for bipod/bench rest stuff that doesn't matter.

No matter what, plan on a heat resistant cover. If you are using it for run and gun you need it to keep from touching the can. If you are doing supported long distance shooting you want it for mirage.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: CJS06 on April 23, 2018, 06:50:11 PM: Carrahee, you are spot on. With the QD in addition to making sure it is a solid secure lock up, look at how difficult they may be to remove. Some lock up tight but due to their design foul badly and end being very difficult to remove.

A good cover is very important to go with a can. Great call!
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Jackalope on April 23, 2018, 08:56:45 PM: Johny, are you looking at a caliber specific suppressor, or a multi caliber suppressor? I was recently doing some research regarding suppressors, and it looks like the multi caliber suppressors are more expensive, but I may be wrong. It seems like using a suppressor would be great for practicing in your backyard. I would imagine that it would also be helpful when teaching by reducing shooter flinch.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: pkveazey on April 23, 2018, 09:22:47 PM: A while back, I was all hot to trot about getting a Suppressor but when I looked into it and found out how expensive they were and having to get a Tax Stamp, I gave up the idea. The notion that I'd have to pay more for a suppressor than the gun cost, just turned me off. Later on, I found out that they need more cleaning than the gun does. Being totally ignorant on the subject, I didn't even think about all the residue that ended up in the sound chambers. If you can afford a suppressor, I'm happy for you because they have got to be fun to shoot through and not use ear muffs.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Nemo on April 23, 2018, 10:36:03 PM: Yes pk, I can afford a nice pair of ear muffs. Not so much for even a cheap can.

Nemo
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on April 23, 2018, 10:38:18 PM: Thanks gents and as usual all good suggestions.

A quick comment on the oil filter suppressor: Cheap and yes you can register the connector however they have a short life and are bulky.

What I want a suppressor for...

1) Sound signature,
2) Flash signature,
3) PA, just made legal, center-fire hunting with a suppressor, and
4) My hearing as reported in an earlier post is poor - I have 25% left in my left ear and 50% in my right.

I am looking for a suppressor that can handle 5.56 through 7.62. If I went with a exclusive 5.56 the amount of decibel reduction from the 7.62 would be negligible.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Nemo on April 23, 2018, 11:06:51 PM: I want one like you see in a James Bond movie.

Anyone up for inventing it?

Nemo
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Kbop on April 24, 2018, 06:52:07 AM: Quote from: Nemo on April 23, 2018, 11:06:51 PM
I want one like you see in a James Bond movie.

Anyone up for inventing it?

Nemo

ya do know that physics is different than movies, right? :trolling:
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Nemo on April 24, 2018, 08:28:35 PM: Nope, Hollywood has me convinced. Getting to me on guns and liberalism too!! :tinfoil:

Nemo
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: grizz on April 26, 2018, 04:47:32 PM: what is the legal definition of a suppressor?

Is it anything the suppresses the sound or does it need to meet a certain decibel level or something else?
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: pkveazey on April 26, 2018, 06:32:06 PM: Quote from: grizz on April 26, 2018, 04:47:32 PM
what is the legal definition of a suppressor?

Is it anything the suppresses the sound or does it need to meet a certain decibel level or something else?

I hope somebody can give you a definitive answer on that because there are a bunch of FAUX SUPPRESSORS for sale and they look just like the regular ones. I'd also like to know the difference.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: special-k on April 26, 2018, 08:58:16 PM: If you were hoping for an engineering specs. style definition from the .gov, using such terms as "dB", "baffles", "ablative", "wipes", etc...it doesn't exist.

However, the .gov does offer their usual nebulous, catch-all, it-means-whatever-the-hell-"they"-want-it-to-mean, definition:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-silencer (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-silencer)

Quote
Gun Control Act Definitions
Silencer

18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(24)

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on April 27, 2018, 06:24:18 AM: There you go. Thx SK! :cheers:

Now to answer your question pkveazey, with in-depth analysis and advise from friends in the know, I have decided to go with...drum roll please...
Show content
Dead Air, Sandman -S! (https://deadairsilencers.com/products/sandman-s/)

As you can see from clicking on the link it meets all of my above criteria and it is less than 7" long (No javelin) weighs less than 18 oz. (More of a balanced rifle), and it can be switched among my 5.56 & 7.62 rifles in less than 15 seconds, not that this task is paramount in my decision.

The runner up was, NG2 (https://www.ng2defense.com/products/maxflo-3d-afd-suppressor) (Nexgen 2 Defense). The biggest plus for NG2 MaxFlo was the almost zero 'blow back' you get from this awesome design. Less blow back means a cleaner rifle and less wear and tear on the innards of my fire poles.

But the lower weight, shorter length, and ability to switch arms with it won out. The NG2 MaxFlo is a screw on suppressor which gives you a great seal BUT (There is always a trade-off) and in this case it is, over time the suppressor can end up welded to your barrel.

So there you go...Let the slings and arrows follow :shitStorm:

I will periodically update the group on the purchase, acquiring the stamp, and then use of my suppressor.

Peace be with all of you!
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Jackalope on April 27, 2018, 04:58:15 PM: Are you going with a trust for the stamp? I'll be interested in how long it takes to get the stamp.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on April 27, 2018, 07:05:22 PM: Although a NFA Trust makes the BATF&E process easier, it adds some complications. One is that you can not take the Title II weapon out of the state of the Trust without written approval from the BATF&E. So for example: I like to train at MVT facility in WV. A Suppressor is legal in WV but due to the item is held in trust, I would have to get permission from BATF&E to transport the suppressor out of state.

Now if I do not have a trust, I can cross state lines between WV and PA, as long as I have the stamp with no issues. In essence though, I would have to avoid MD. at all cost as I would be breaking MD law by passing from PA. to MD (All 10 miles of it) to enter into WV where suppressors are legal.

IMO, Title II NFA trusts really are a hindrance EXCEPT after I exit this earth. With a NFA Trust, my wife or whomever listed on the Trust can hang onto the item while it is sold or held into perpetuity till they exit this dimension.

Without a NFA Trust, when I exit this dimension, my wife can hand over the Title II item to a Class 03 dealer, who can hang onto it while the item is sold.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded answer to your question Jackalope.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Jackalope on April 27, 2018, 07:43:16 PM: Thanks Johny for the explanation. It's good to know the intricacies of suppressor ownership. I'm trying to learn all I can so when I can legally own one I can move full speed ahead. I'm hoping to own one next year.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on April 28, 2018, 07:32:15 AM: No problems Jackalope. We are all learning so hence the subject line.

It must be nice to finally see the end of the tunnel, huh?
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on May 06, 2018, 12:07:20 PM: Attached is a picture of my new suppressor!

Well it is actually a picture of the paperwork going into BATF&E to get my NFA Stamp. In six to eight months once my paperwork is processed, I can actually put it on my rifle.

Inbetween, I am allowed to gaze upon it at my Class 03 FFL dealers shop. ;D

Final cost:
1) Dead Air Sandman-S with 1, 1/2"x28 muzzle brake.....................$796.00
2) Additional 1/2"x28 muzzle brake...............................................$ 80.00
Sub Tl....................................................................................$876.00
PA. Sales Tax..........................................................................$ 52.56
Grand Total ............................................................................$928.56

Then there is the $200- additional which will be going towards the "NFA Stamp".
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Jackalope on May 07, 2018, 11:44:55 AM: I had an opportunity to fire a Keltec KSG 12 ga. shotgun with a suppressor attached this weekend while visiting Windham Weaponry. If you have a need to fire a KSG indoors, using a suppressor is the way to go. Without the suppressor, the KSG is incredibly loud even with hearing protection. The suppressor makes the sound more manageable, and it seemed to make the KSG even more accurate. I don't recall the make of the suppressor, but the staff reported that the suppressor costs more than the gun. In spite of the cost, I believe a suppressor for my KSG is on my shopping list.
We also had a chance to fire a Windham AR-15 set up for three round bursts. That was an interesting experience. I guess one of those will be on my shopping list too. I need to win the lottery!
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on May 07, 2018, 04:27:12 PM: AWESOME! I am glad you had a good time.

Did you find me a under $200- junker that works? ;)

Peace! :dancingBanana:
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: Jackalope on May 07, 2018, 05:44:59 PM: An Atlas 210 transceiver, 10-80 meters, analog dial. I need to check it out to make sure the receive sensitivity is good. They have a tendency to drift some, but they are easy to work on.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: pkveazey on May 07, 2018, 08:08:32 PM: Quote from: Jackalope on May 07, 2018, 05:44:59 PM
An Atlas 210 transceiver, 10-80 meters, analog dial. I need to check it out to make sure the receive sensitivity is good. They have a tendency to drift some, but they are easy to work on.

Atlas and Swann were the same radio. I had the Atlas 350 XL and it was a killer 200 watt radio. The Atlas 210 is the one that gave Atlas a bad name because you didn't need to use the VFO. You just turned it on and put it on the band you wanted to use and it would eventually drift past whatever frequency you wanted to be on. Just to be safe, the fellow I bought my Atlas 350 XL from, went in and changed every one of those 20% tolerance resistors out to 1% resistors and mine would calm down in less than 1 or 2 minutes after I turned it on. If the Atlas 210 has had the resistors changed out, it should be a good radio. As far as receive sensitivity, mine was top notch. A direct hit Lightning strike took mine out. I loved it but I then bought a new ICOM IC-718.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on May 08, 2018, 06:29:22 AM: Interesting stuff gentlemen.

Lets chat further Jackalope. ;D
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on May 28, 2018, 02:20:17 PM: Well my suppressor is in but I now have to wait 6 or so months for the NFA Stamp to arrive before I can remove it from the Class III dealers property.

My dealer was very excited with the quality of the suppressor and was hot to try it out but would not do so until I had taken the first shot with it on my AR. So this past Friday I got to touch it and try it out. She is S.W.E.E.T!

We had to make a few small adjustments with the muzzle break using the accompanying shims but all is good. Tried it under different conditions to give it the full decibel test. The final being walking up to the back stop and shooting it about 2 feet away to listen without the sonic CRACK you would get father back. You could clearly hear the bolt cycling as I pulled the trigger.

On another note: I need a better trigger on my Colt 6920 then what comes with it. So I have began my search for said trigger. It seems like the Triggertech AR-15 TT AR-15 (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-tt-ar-15-triggers-adjustable-prod97327.aspx?avad=avant&aid=171521&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-Custom+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-IR-_-60594&utm_content=60594&aid=227925&utm_source=ir&utm_campaign=itwine&utm_medium=affiliate&source=ir) adjustable trigger looks about what I am looking for but always open to suggestions. ;)
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: bennington.camper on May 28, 2018, 07:56:15 PM: Thanks for the update on your suppressor! Was thinking about going down that path myself up till about a month ago.
Anyway, what I have read is that the Timney Trigger is a great upgrade for the AR platform.
https://www.timneytriggers.com/ (https://www.timneytriggers.com/)
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: gadget99 on May 29, 2018, 04:55:39 AM: Just had a chuckle here.

As I have said before. Comparing the UK to the US does not work. The foundations of the societies are different.

The chuckle was about suppressor's. You have to go through alot to be allowed to have a firearm here. Yet the suppressor is unregulated.

You have to have a hard to get license to have a firearm. Yet you can purchase an surplus tank with no regulatory issues. Pay for it and it is yours to take home.

You have to love the different ironic elements to life.
Title: Re: Suppressors
Post by: JohnyMac on May 29, 2018, 08:15:24 AM: Yeah, you have to love it gadget ;).

The county sheriff did my prints for the NFA Stamp and we had a great discussion on gun laws. In essence he feels that many firearm regulations are silly ESPECIALLY the ones on suppressors. In his opinion, a suppressor is a safety piece of equipment.