Flint Lock - Making it Work

[JohnyMac]

Reaver wrote, "You guys gotta remember JM was around for the birth of our nation.  He sees things in a different light."     

How true!

[Reaver]

Reaver wrote, "You guys gotta remember JM was around for the birth of our nation.  He sees things in a different light."     

How true!

I prefer the cap and ball era jm to be honest I can't think of a time I've ever even fired flint.

[JohnyMac]

You haven't truly learned to keep a sight picture through the full chain of events as you get from a flinter.

Heavy hammer striking a frizzen, the frizzen snaps open to expose the pan of 4F and drop the hot metal into the pan.  Then a puff from the pan powder followed by the ignition of the charge and then the ball traveling down a 42" barrel.

Now again while that is happening you have to maintain sights on target, cheek to stock and butt plate firmly placed against shoulder. 
 

[Reaver]

You haven't truly learned to keep a sight picture through the full chain of events as you get from a flinter.

Heavy hammer striking a frizzen, the frizzen snaps open to expose the pan of 4F and drop the hot metal into the pan.  Then a puff from the pan powder followed by the ignition of the charge and then the ball traveling down a 42" barrel.

Now again while that is happening you have to maintain sights on target, cheek to stock and butt plate firmly placed against shoulder. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the English have such a big caliber rifle (.58) that when they fired the flash would be so big they had to turn their heads?

[Kbop]

Reaver wrote, "You guys gotta remember JM was around for the birth of our nation.  He sees things in a different light."     

How true!

is that a Maryland Long Rifle?

[JohnyMac]

Reaver, the British used a Brown Bess from about 1720's till 1830's. The caliber was .75 and it was a smooth bore. I have fired them on occasion and never had a problem with a larger than normal flash in the pan. The British used smooth bores to facilitate loading and then shooting 3 rounds a minute. If you are really good, you can load and shoot  2 rounds a minute using a rifled barrel. I am more like 1 round every 60 seconds. 

Kbop, my rifle (1:66 Rifled bore) is a Lancaster late model. This style of rifle was produced by German immigrants in the Bethlehem, Allentown, Easton area of Pennsylvania between 1770 and the turn of the century. She fires a .526 round ball with a .023 ticking patch that compresses down to .018 as it is rammed down the rifled barrel. The ball and patch sit on 80 grains of 3F powder. After the first shot, I use my saliva for a lube.

The rifle was made for me by a guy in Alabama. She sports a 42" swamped Colerain barrel that was browned not blued and sits in a hand rubbed Tiger Maple stock. The lock is a L&R classic with a double set triggers.

She shoots 1" high at 50 yards and about 1/4" high at 100 yards. Using a bench rest I can hit a 10" gong set at 200 yards all day long holding at 12 O' clock.

Sorry folks if that is to much detail 

[Grudgie]

Were colonists using rifled barrels or smooth bore? What was the difference in range between the two?

[Reaver]

Were colonists using rifled barrels or smooth bore? What was the difference in range between the two?

Again I'm no expert and could be wrong but if I'm not mistaken they ( Non Military types ) used .45 Caliber Rifled.

The one I have is a .50 White Mountain Carbine.
My Sidearm is a Ruger old Army. =)

[JohnyMac]

Great question Grudgie 

For the most part rifles that were used by private citizens in New England were smooth bores in .69 - .75 caliber range (12 - 10 Gauge). They were used as duel purpose rifles - Shot gun and single projectiles. Talking about single shot smooth bore: A favorite load was, powder two round balls just dropped on the charge with no patch followed with the last ball being patched. Voila! You have a three ball buck shot load. 

Now it seems that the rifles carried in the mid Atlantic area used rifled barrels. This was probably influenced by the German immigrants that settled in this area. They brought from Germany the Jaeger rifle.

Basically the Jaegar rifle was shorter than the musket, rifled and of smaller caliber than a smooth bore. Typically in .45, .50, .54 or .58 caliber.

The rifled barrel was superior in the following area's:

> Used less powder,
> Used less lead,
> Accurate to a greater distance (Known to accurately kill men at 300 yards),
> Like accuracy, more deadly at a greater distance, and
> Lighter in weight.

With all of that written, the military preferred the smooth bore due to the speed in which you could load it. As previously written, a well trained solider could load and shoot their musket 3 times a minute. When fired in volley form, it would be quite formidable weapon. Add to the volley a 3/4" lead projectile (550 grains vs. a 225 grain ball from a .54 caliber rifle) coming at you OUCH!

Now let's talk about the American Revolution.

Like their British & Hessian foes the American solider was armed with a smooth bore musket. Specifically it was a Charleville Musket. The rifle was similar to the British Brown Bess but .69 caliber instead of the .75 caliber.

Why the Charleville you ask? Well remember that France was our ally and selling to the American government rifles, artillery, powder, lead, etc.

Now the American army was unique in that they had a battalion of troops outfitted with rifled barrel long guns called officially Provisional Rifle Corps but we know them today as Morgan's Rifleman. This battalion was commanded by Colonel Daniel Morgan and was made up of Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia men carrying their own rifles.

There specific duty in battle was sharpshooting. Sharpshooting the officers of the enemy.

Morgan's Rifleman were directly responsible for the win by General Gates at the Battle of Saratoga (Fall 1777). Under General Benedict Arnold's command, Morgan's sharpshooters directed fire on...

"Morgan placed marksmen at strategic positions, who then picked off virtually every single officer in the advance company. Morgan and his men then charged, unaware that they were headed directly for Burgoyne's main army. While they succeeded in driving back the advance company, Fraser's leading edge arrived just in time to attack Morgan's left, scattering his men back into the woods.[34] James Wilkinson, who had ridden forward to observe the fire, returned to the American camp for reinforcements. As the British company fell back toward the main column, the leading edge of that column opened fire, killing a number of their own men...

...The battle then went through phases alternating between intense fighting and breaks in the action. Morgan's men had regrouped in the woods, and busily picked off officers and artillerymen. They were so effective at reducing the latter that the Americans several times gained brief control of British field pieces, only to lose them in the next British charge. At one point it was believed that Burgoyne himself had been taken down by a sharpshooter; it was instead one of Burgoyne's aides, riding a richly dressed horse, who was the victim. The center of the British line was very nearly broken at one point, and only the intervention of General Phillips, leading the 20th, made it possible for the 62nd to reform."
Battles of Saratoga

Upon General Burgoyne's surrender to General Gates it was reported that Burgoyne commented to Gates that his sharpshooters were more affective than artillery and had won the battle for the American's.

Again, more information than any of you wanted but what the heck. 

[Reaver]

Its not more information than I wanted. Thanks JM

[Kbop]

Very cool, Thanks!

[JohnyMac]

As MrsMac often tells me, "You are a cesspool of worthless information!" 

[Grudgie]

Very cool information. One last question, what made rifled muzzle loaders so time consuming to load?

[JohnyMac]

Smooth bore (Like a shotgun) was easy to push a patched ball down as there was no obstruction, e.g. rifling. Cleaning a shotgun is easier than a rifled barrel...Right?

A black powder rifled barrel has 4, 5, 7 lands & groves just like the rifling on your current primary. A proper fitted patch to ball will aide the spin of the ball based on the twist of the rifling. This will give you the best accuracy/power ratio. Most rifles of this time period had 1:55 to 1:72 twists. Gee what is the twist of your your AR? Mine is 1:7. 

Today your bullet is .001- .003" larger than your barrel as it is loaded from the breach end and will not need a patch to aid in generating the proper spin.

Using an old smoke pole, you load from the muzzle not the breech. The ball needs to be smaller then the barrel diameter so you can load it from the muzzle. Hence you need a patch to take up the room between the groves and bullet. 

The amount of time needed to put powder down the barrel, push a tight ball/patch down a rifled barrel takes more time then...Ripping the end off a paper cartridge with your teeth, pouring the powder down the smooth bore barrel and then jamming down the barrel the other end of the paper cartridge that contains the ball. The paper that housed the powder is used to secure the ball against the powder. Hopefully at this point you can understand the different process.

Now what is a properly fitted patch you ask.

Remembering that a land is the high point of your rifling while the groove is the low part. Using my Colerain barrel in my Late Lancaster as an example:

When measuring the barrel from grove to grove across the diameter it measures .540. Doing the same measurement between the lands I get .524 so I need a patch that is a minimum ~ .016 (.524 + .016 = .540) in thickness.. The patches job is not just to hold the lead ball securely in the barrel but to act as a gasket to aid the spin of the ball as it travels down the barrel. It needs to do that without allowing any escaping gasses (power).

When I received the rifle I started out shooting it with 55 gr of 3F, .526* ball and a .015 patch. I kept shooting three round sets using the same charge, ball size and .015 patch but changed the thickness of the patch by .001" after each three shot set.

To do this I used cigarette wrapping papers (approx .001") to expand the thickness of the patch/ball until I got nice clean cloverleaf holes at 25 yards. Obviously the papers went between the ball and the patch NOT on the outside of the patch. It took five sets to figure out that a .018 or .019 patched thickness was the best patch thickness for my barrel.

Once I had that knowledge, I went to JoAnne Fabrics with my micrometer and bought several varieties of 100% tightly woven cotton material, starting at .017 and ending at .023 thickness. Then back to the rifle range to do another test.

I tried each material till I determined which patch and ball combo was the most accurate.

To make a long story short, the best patch/ball combo was a .023 cotton pillow ticking material that compressed down to .018. The extra material .005 (.018 - .023 = .005) compressed and was needed when I got up to hotter loads so the patch wouldn't burn-through by the burning powder during the patch/ball travels down the barrel.

Once the patch/ball combo was determined it was time to sight in the rifle and then to determine what the optimum powder charge was for the barrel (Every barrel is different) and the patch/ball combo.

* I could have used a .535 or .530 ball size but the reduced thickness of the patch would have caused "burn-through" of the patch. You
   don't want that as it affects accuracy and power due to escaping gasses. It is a balance between patch burn-through and
   maintaining the heavier weight of a larger ball. Larger ball gives you more knockdown power.   

If you are interested on the sighting-in process let me know and I will continue.

[Kbop]

please do!

 

[Reaver]

JM can you do me a favor and transfer all of this information into another tread is is worth while information but I feel it's in the wrong spot.


Cool shot btw.

[JohnyMac]

Good suggestion Reaver...Done! 

[Reaver]

NOW THIS is a notable thread. Pin this mother lol

Hey, JM I got the patch about a week ago. I'll go outside and set up a picture for this place iiiiiight! Man what a beautiful day it is down here.

I know some of you guys don't have facebook but here's a link to the Patch JM sent me for Unchained. https://www.facebook.com/

[JohnyMac]

You deserved it! 

[JohnyMac]

I have some free time and a nice glass of chardonnay to my left, so here goes on sighting in my flinter.

A couple of weeks elapsed between the final decision on what patch material and thicknesses I needed. A rendezvous with a "woods walk" was quickly approaching so I needed to get that rifle sighted in!

I was getting a nice clover leaf with my final patch/ball combo using 55 gr of 3F at 25 yards; about 4 inches down and 3 inches left of POA (Point of Aim). So I took a brass 1/4" rod and a finishing hammer to my rear sight moving it one whack to the left. Shot three rounds. Yupper, the Point of Impact was moving right.

I continued this procedure until the POI (Point of Impact) was on the North/South longitude of POA - Again about 4" down from POA.

During this time I did clean my barrel using a "moose milk" dampened cotton patch, followed with a dry patch. To keep things consistent I swabbed the barrel twice with a dampened patch and then twice with a dry patch - Between every shot. Consistency is the name of the game here.

Now that I was in line with POA I increased the powder charge to 70 gr of 3F. The clover leaf was still there and the POI moved up about 1". Next I jumped up to 80gr 3F and again my POI moved up about 1". I started to notice a minor separating of the impact on the target. Instead of a nice ragged one hole I was seeing three distinct target impacts.

At this point I figured either I was at the maximum amount of barrel length that this barrel could handle (Burn all of the powder efficiently) or I was tired for the day. After all, 80gr of black powder is a hefty load. Remember a .45/70 Government round only took 70gr of 2F powder and we all know that 3F is a hotter burning powder. So I left for the day.

The next day I looked at my self in the mirror and my right shoulder was a big black & white mess. I had forgot to adjust for a hold of the rifle to my shoulder. The typical rifle hold of this period (Butt plate to shoulder) is where your arm meets your shoulder not from the middle shoulder that we use in modern long rifles today.

The following weekend found me at the rifle range again. My first 3 round set was 80gr of 3F at 25 yards. All impacts were in a 1 1/4" circle about 2 inches south of POA- Not bad.

Now it was time to go for the "mother of all hunting loads".

My next several sets I increased the powder by 5gr until I got to the point of 100gr of 3F. By this time the POI had grown to about 3 inches at 25 yards and my arm/shoulder was killing me. Remember, I also took the time to cleane between each shot to get some form of consistency.

I was flinching because of the recoil and I noticed that my patches had started to burn-through. I knew it was time to back off to a load that was stiff yet I could consistently handle which was 80gr of 3F.

The following weekend was the rendezvous and I used the rifle compensating (Kentucky wind-age) for the lower POI. I got third overall in the woods walk competition not so much for my shooting but because I took over 2 minutes to start a fire using flint & steel. My overall score got debited because of this.

During the event one issue I was having was seeing the front sight clearly while in the woods.     

My rifle originally came with a brass front sight. It worked great on the range where there was a lot of sunshine but not so well in the light filtered woods. As much as I hated to admit it, my older eyes needed a silver front sight. I knew ahead that this might be a bit of  problem but was to cheap to buy the silver front sight up front.

Anyhow, I called the gunsmith who made the rifle and he had in the mail that day a new silver sight. By the weekend I had the old one tapped out and the new one in place.

Once I was at the range that weekend, I started out with my usual load of 80gr of 3F powder fired at a target 25 yards from the bench. Guess what? Yup my POI now was several inches to the right of the POA. Installing the new front sight had screwed up my sight plane and I had to start all over again moving the rear sight to get that perfect N/S lineup.
 
Once I accomplished that POI was now about 3" south of POA. I guess the new silver sight was a tad taller than the old one.

Well over a period of shooting I slowly filed away the front silver sight. Great caution was used to keep the part filed away square and level to the barrel.

Once the POA became the POI I said ENOUGH and went home.

Several weeks went by before I could return to the range. However upon the first round I was pleased to see that my lead pellets were impacting in the 2" bulls eye nicely.

At this point I moved the target out to 50 yards. The POI was about a half an inch low at that distance so I started filing away the front sight and then shooting and then filing until I was getting a POI from POA about 1" high - PERFECT!

I moved the target out and my grouping did move out to about 2" and my POI was about 1/4-1/2" high. IMO perfect for deer hunting.

If I aimed for dead center of the boiler plate on a deer it will be meat from 0-150 yards. And as I had written earlier, I can hit a metal 10"gong consistently at 200 yards.

One day for kicks and giggles I chronograph my current load. I set the chronograph out at 50 yards so I wouldn't get any interference from the patch or unburned powder. Currently my "shooting book", that I record all of my stats in; is back in RI. So this is by memory...At 50 yards, using 80 gr of 3F Goex powder I get 1,650 FPS which gives me ~1,350 Bullet energy using that 225 gr .526 lead pill. It's around 1,000 Bullet energy at 100 yards.

Not much but compared to a 45 ACP fired from a 1911, with ~325 Bullet Energy at muzzle. Or a .44 Magnum with 240 gr bullet at ~525 Bullet Energy at muzzle; It will get the job done. 

Questions?     

[graynomad]

Very interesting JM, and as a newbie to blackpowder I'm soaking it all up.

I'm on the verge of ordering a BP rifle, cap lock though, I hope that's not too modern

I've been shooting them at the range and also spent the last week or two researching twist rates, rifling depths etc etc and have 99% settled on a Pedersoli Tryon Match, 45cal minie ball. When I get it I suppose I'll have to go through most/all of the steps you mention above.

Questions? I have one for now, what sort of range do you get from your gun? Not for tight groups to win a competition but to hit say 12" steel with reasonable consistency.

[JohnyMac]

The farthest I have shot was 200 yards with round ball and patch. I was shooting at a 10" gong. Consistently hit it with a 12 O' clock hold.

Now as I have previously written at the Battle of Saratoga, the American Sharo Shooters were hitting British soldiers 300 yards out. That is with round ball and patch. I am sure they uped their powder charge but there is a the law of deminishing return on using too much powder.

Using a conical bullet as you will use in the Pedersoli with a 1:21 twist barrel you could easily hit a 12" gong at 300 yards. Remember that the buffalo hunters on the American plain were dropping buffalo at that distance with ease using a similar rifle as yours.

The cap ignited charge will add a bit to your accuracy as there will not be the time delay experienced with a flinter :-)

I have an old caplock Hawken style rifle I use conical's in. The lube I use for the lands is 4:1 bees wax to 1000 Wonder Lube. Thompson bore butter will work just as good as the 1000 Wonder Lube - Just more expensive.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. I don't know it all but I have learned a few things. ;-)

[graynomad]

Here's a question.

The Tryon I am interested has a 1:21 twist as you say, and also a very shallow rifling. All this is designed for minie balls and that is my main interest.

BUT, just today I discovered that at rendezvous you can only shoot round balls.

I assume that while the fast twist is not required for RBs it also doesn't do much/any harm, so if I get the exact bore size of the Tryon and find an appropriate round ball can I use patches and RBs when I go to a rendezvous then revert to my minie balls at other times?

[JohnyMac]

A 1:21 twist is way to fast for a round ball - Sorry. What will happen is your target will look like you fired some 00 buck shot at it. Bottom-line, no consistent accuracy.

Now with that written; at 50 yards your impact on a target might be 6 inches rather than 2 inches and at 100 yards 12 inches rather than 4 inches.

Most rendezvous I have attended have several events you can sign up for. For example the last one I signed up for had these events:

> Woods walk. A series of 15-18 gong targets (Pig, Turkey, deer, etc) set at 10 -75 yards along a path
    you walk along and shoot at. Points are measured by hit or miss. 
> Square range:This is your basic shooting range where you shoot at objects set at 25 - 100 yards. The
    targets are like; A axe is set up between two paper targets. The goal is to shoot at the axe blade to split the
    ball. Cigarettes are set up along a pole horizontally and you have to hit them. Etcetera.
> Fire starting: You have to start a fire with flint and steel. Score is kept by how fast you do it.
> Blade Throwing: Throwing knife and or axe (Tomahawk).
> Dress:How accurate your period dress was/is.

In short, there will be winners of each event and then an overall winner at the end based on how they finished in each event. So you can still participate and win overall with a less than the ideal rifle. ;-)

The best middle of the road BP rifle twist is 48:1. This rifling will handle both conical and round bullets relatively well. Not perfect but OK.

Now I am sure you are asking, "Why only a round ball?" Well the conical bullet (Minie ball) was designed by some French dude in the middle to late 1840's. By the time it made it's way across the pond (s) the collective buckskin period was over. Plus nobody would have used it with existing rifles as the rifling was all wrong.

May I be so bold as to suggest...Just buy another barrel from Pedersoli or Green River Barrels with a slower twist. The barrel is the cheapest part of a BP rifle. You could buy it in "the white" (Unfinished) and save money there too. Then brown (traditional finish) or blue it yourself. Or just leave it in the white. If you do do this go for ~54:1 for round ball in a short Hawken style barrel.

Oh the world of black powder shooting 

[graynomad]

Looks like my decision might have been made for me, one of the blokes in a local club has a Tryon Target for sale, 50 cal, 1:48 twist, as new condition, 2/3rds new price. I hope to check it out next weekend.