922r compliance??

[thatGuy]

Hey Gang,

505th.NM.Militia and I have been debating the Draco to SBR question and we came to a sticking point.

Because the Draco or better yet the Draco with a Compliance break and Ace side folder has never been imported in that configuration it's never been on a ban list... So does it need to be 922r compliant?

[gapatriot]

According to the ATF because it is a rifle, there for it has to be 922r compliant. So you need to replace the fire control group with a tapco g-2 set that's 3 parts, the stock is 1, and the break is 1 then put a houge pistol grip for your 6th part and you are golden. However with the ATF things change according to the agent you talk to, so if they say you dont need to be compliant get it in writing, and keep the letter with the rifle.

[Reaver]

According to the ATF because it is a rifle, there for it has to be 922r compliant. So you need to replace the fire control group with a tapco g-2 set that's 3 parts, the stock is 1, and the break is 1 then put a houge pistol grip for your 6th part and you are golden. However with the ATF things change according to the agent you talk to, so if they say you dont need to be compliant get it in writing, and keep the letter with the rifle.

That and purchase a few American made magazine's they are also another part. When someone comes around stash the euro mags and drop in the shitty American ones.

Now there is another way around the Tax stamp. To the compliance parts, get a 5.5" flashhider and silver solder it on. Bringing the barrel past 16"'s  Then when SHTF just heat up that solder and pop off that long ass flashhider.

That's the route I'm thinking about going.

[thatGuy]

I was suggesting that Reaver. It's what we are thinking about doing.

[Reaver]

I was suggesting that Reaver. It's what we are thinking about doing.

Well then to be a technical douche its not an SBR after that. Its actually a Rifle.  [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[gapatriot]

with 6 us parts there is no need to dick with us made mags! the g-2 trigger counts as 3 his ace folder as 1 the muzzle brake as 1 then just a us made pistol grip. and you can rock non us surplus mags!!!!!!!!! [URL=http://www.smileyvault.co

[RS762]

Im a good 90% sure you can't legally turn a pistol into a rifle or vice versa.
I heard Iraqveteran8888 talking about it on youtube.

An SBR is NOT a rifle, it is a pistol being converted to an SBR, it's own legal category of weapon.

Although it is made new in it's pistol form and then imported from Romania it is still subject the the many, many, many pointless fucking laws that exist only to harass gun owners.

You will still need an ATF Form 1 to legally turn a "pistol" into a "rifle" or vise versa. Legal definitions of course. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

These guys have a pretty good discussion about it.
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/32842-what-law-sbr-vs-pistol.html

C2builder is an amazing gunsmith, knows his shit, and has the channel to back it up.
SBR Projects & NFA Laws (The video's owner prevents external embedding)

[Reaver]

No RS its Rifle into a pistol.

And as long as the barrel is over 16" inches in length. You CAN add a stock.
( Compliance parts added prior to putting a stock on it as well. )

And yes an SBR is in its own category. The Short barreled category. But if the muzzle is over 16" and overall length is 26" then it is in the rifle category.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

The term "short-barreled rifle"
means a rifle having one or more barrels
less than sixteen inches in length
and any weapon made from a rifle
(whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise) if such weapon, as modified,
has an overall length of less than
twenty-six inches. 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=653192

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=652468

[doppleganger]

Bad Intel. Silver soldering flash supressors to meet length restrictions requires that the parts being attatched must be a minimum of pinned and welded on opposite ends in a minimum of two places. Silver solder is not acceptable.

According to the ATF because it is a rifle, there for it has to be 922r compliant. So you need to replace the fire control group with a tapco g-2 set that's 3 parts, the stock is 1, and the break is 1 then put a houge pistol grip for your 6th part and you are golden. However with the ATF things change according to the agent you talk to, so if they say you dont need to be compliant get it in writing, and keep the letter with the rifle.

That and purchase a few American made magazine's they are also another part. When someone comes around stash the euro mags and drop in the shitty American ones.

Now there is another way around the Tax stamp. To the compliance parts, get a 5.5" flashhider and silver solder it on. Bringing the barrel past 16"'s  Then when SHTF just heat up that solder and pop off that long ass flashhider.

That's the route I'm thinking about going.
[/quote]

[doppleganger]

It is illegal to convert a rifle to a pistol or configuration of a pistol if the rifle was originally sold and logged as a rifle. Exception to attn regulation being a receiver sold as neither a pistol or rifle can be configured in any way the builder chooses.
Converting a pistol to a rifle is a gray area as long as the minimum requirements for barrel length and overall length is met. With a pistol to rifle conversion, you can't put a forward grip on it, because then it would fall under nfa guidelines as either an aow or a sbr.
in any case, a. Clarification letter should be requested from your States aft and filed for a rainy day.

Im a good 90% sure you can't legally turn a pistol into a rifle or vice versa.
I heard Iraqveteran8888 talking about it on youtube.

An SBR is NOT a rifle, it is a pistol being converted to an SBR, it's own legal category of weapon.

Although it is made new in it's pistol form and then imported from Romania it is still subject the the many, many, many pointless fucking laws that exist only to harass gun owners.

You will still need an ATF Form 1 to legally turn a "pistol" into a "rifle" or vise versa. Legal definitions of course. [img]http://www.arrse.co.uk/at

These guys have a pretty good discussion about it.
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/32842-what-law-sbr-vs-pistol.html

C2builder is an amazing gunsmith, knows his shit, and has the channel to back it up.
SBR Projects & NFA Laws

[Reaver]

It is not bad intel.

A silver solder is enough.

[gapatriot]

Silver solder is good! Welding is easier I weld mine on. Tell me doppleganger how long have you been building? What have you built?

[doppleganger]

Ive been "building" since 2007 as a full time gunsmith. I've built FAL'S AR'S AK'S 1911'S bolt guns and black powder rifles.  I've repaired everything from modern bullpups to antique brown Bess muskets and spent a lot of time doing trigger jobs on revolvers.  I've been tinkering with rifles since highschool. I know my shit.
I know that little tid-bit about the silver solder from research with the ATF  out of Denver when I put together an AR group build last year. We bought about 30 barrels from citadel and ended up with a bunch of 14"ers in leu of 16"ers. In order to keep our FFL the ATF gave us instructions on the proper way to permanently mount flash supressors.

I had my old boss read me our copy of the letter over the phonethis is what it said.

. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Washington, D.C. 20226

JUN 18 1998

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of March 31, 1998, in which you ask about permanently attaching a muzzle device to various firearms.

A muzzle device, such as a muzzle brake or barrel extension, which is attached to a barrel by means of welding or high temperature silver solder having a melting point of at least 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, is considered to be part of the barrel for purposes of measurement. A seam weld extending at least one-half the circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose.

A firearm having a muzzle brake, cap, or barrel extension permanently attached by those same methods to cover the threads on a barrel, would not be considered to have a threaded muzzle. Please note, however, that any muzzle device or barrel extension which functions as a flash suppressor or grenade launcher would still constitute one of the qualifying features of a semiautomatic assault weapon as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30(B). Industrial adhesive products are not an acceptable method for permanently attaching a muzzle device.

- 2 -

Mr.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,

The problem with silver solder comes to the melting point of the silver solder. Different brands melt at different temperatures.  Actual silver soldering with flux and silver solder strip is fine, swift 50 is not. That is the gray area in which silver soldering on a part could bite you in the ass.  When in doubt, go the extra step and weld. What is your freedom worth.

[gapatriot]

Dopple the discussion was about what temp the solder melts, you said silver solder was no good! Brownells sells an 1100 degree silver solder. So because you assumed that reaver and myself don't know what we are talking about that, we are automatically wrong? That is bullshit! You are not the only person here that knows the ins and outs of the law. The ATF laws change based on the an gent but for you to say bad Intel is fucking bullshit, the ATF has 3 acceptable ways of permanently fixing muzzle brakes one of which is SILVER SOLDERING. The other is welding based on your local field office, and blind pinning (pinning and welding over both sides of the pin). I got nothing against you man but one of the rules of this board is not to knowingly spread false information and with the "silver soldering is no good" you did that.

[doppleganger]

I wouldn't tell anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I wouldn't use silver solder EVER to attatch a muzzle break. So I'm sorry your feelings were hurt, I'll. Stick by my guns on this one. I have first hand knowledge to share. 

Weld.  Don't solder. This was drilled into me by my instructors in school over and over again. If you're going to do it, do it right. Blind pinning and welding over is a sure way to secure a flash supressor and I think the easiest process to reverse if needed. You just grind away the weld and pull out the pin. The damage to the threads is negligible and the parts are all reusable.

Like everything else I post, if you don't like it disregard

And don't assume that because I have a low post count next to my name that I'm going to tiptoe around here. I'm a resource for you guys to use  if you'll take the time to ask.

Cheers.

[gapatriot]

While you were taught that silver solder is not the way to go none the less it is an acceptable method according to the ATF. I agree that blind pinning is the easiest to reverse. I don't like silver soldering because of the heat involved but for most people it is the only way they can do it. Most people don't have a MiG at home let alone a tig. I'm not upset about your post at all, I just disagree when you say that silver soldering is a no go. Because frankly the point of this thread is to convert a Draco into a rifle with an extended break. Not what is the best method or what we were taught. In fact I'm glad you are on board so if I have a problem I cant figure out I can bounce ideas off of you. I respect your opinion but when it comes to a discussion like this for the average person silver soldering may be their only method.

[doppleganger]

Well then cheers on you GA, next time I will add a caveat to my post. Maybe offer information in a good better best format. ATF douche  bags really don't like firearms and when it.comes to something that's minimum 10 years in prison and minimum $25,000 dollar fine I just don't think shortcutting on something like welding on a compliance part is worth the risk.

Ahem.

My apologies to the board. Silver solder is an acceptable method to attatch a flash suppressor as long as the flow temperature of the solder is rated at or over  1100 degrees. HOWEVER I feel it would worth the $20 to have a local welder weld the part on within the scope of 922 compliance due to government douche baggery and risk of "interpretation "

(Takes a bow, exits stage left)

[thatGuy]

Thanks for the info Dopple, I've never heard any mention elsewhere about temp ratings on the solder but you are right when you say that it isn't worth getting busted over. That right there is the damn truth.

 [url=http://www.freesmileys.or

[Reaver]

I always miss out on the  fun

[thatGuy]

Busting new guy's ball's isn't fun. It was the death of the last forum.

[Reaver]

Busting new guy's ball's isn't fun. It was the death of the last forum.

I wouldn't be busting balls. I would be defending myself...but GA did a mighty fine job for me.